Good form vs. long distance?

[G-dub]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sQP3wsGbPXk

It's the one called husky power

[gooseflight]

2. I keep the SPM above 20 (25 is comfortable for me) but the drive/recovery ratio goes to 1:1.

Fix your stroke sequence. Your ratio is all over the place because, in particular, you rush the recovery and do everything at once. You're a tall guy, 20 spm should feel fine. 12 spm is just silly.

1. Hands away
2. Pivot at hips
3. Knees up

Rate (and ratio) is mostly about time spent on the slide during recovery.

Incidentally, if anything I would increase the DF. You will feel the wheel more.

[Anth_F]

Incidentally, if anything I would increase the DF. You will feel the wheel more.

This^^

working from a 90 DF won't be doing you any favors!!!!!

[Tim K.]

Somewhere around here there is an animation of proper form. Legs then back(hips) then arms. Search this. Find it and keep it in mind the entire time your row until it is second nature. Only you can do it. This will slow you down.

You will need to take some personal accountability. No one on here can fix your form or inability to control you output:
You need to video tape yourself and correct your form. Start initially with 1 min at a time and look at how you did. Correct and repeat. Only you can do it and you need to be objective. It is not easy but its up to you.
You need to practice limiting the force you are applying to stay within your output limits for the distance you are performing.
You need to correct your posture, you shoulders are rounded and back is humped for the duration of the 5 strokes I took the time to look at in your clip.
You need to increase hamstring flexibility. Your low back is rounded to permit straight legs at full extension and is at minimum contributing to your poor posture.
This is foundational. You wont get there tomorrow. Asking questions on here is great to get a kick in the right direction but you need to sit on the machine and start with the basics. Forget about getting a work out and work on getting the basics right first.

4 pages! Really?

[Cyclingman1]

What I have said, and I seem to be having a hard time making it clear so others understand, is that when I attempt (not achieve) good form, it seems impossible to row properly at any pace slower than about 2:05. If I pull gently enough to achieve a pace of 2:15, then my drive takes about 1.3 seconds

Who says that is a problem? The drive time and drive/rest ratio of 1:2 ratio are hypotheticals that happen at certain SPMs and certain paces. It's not a rule.
One slows by increasing the rest time, that is, the recovery phase. The drive phase is often similar in time across a range of SPM, but can be extended.
In fact, that is what slower SPM workouts are all about. It allows one to increase the drive power by increasing the recovery time.
Likewise, if one simply wants to row at a lower pace, keep the drive power the same and increase the recovery time. Or one can reduce the drive force and keep the ratio the same. Or increase the drive time. There are many ways.

It seems that there is considerable confusion here and misunderstanding about the rowing stroke. And/or there is a lack of fitness to achieve an efficient stroke for 60 min. Maybe for veteran rowers, 60 min is no big deal. It is a long time to row. I virtually never do it, because of the difficulty. And I'm a 70+ rower who does sub-7min 2Ks.

[hjs]

The OP seems unwilling to admit that he is not ready for an efficient 60 min row. What’s the point in doing a poor, inefficient 60 min? I say learn to row and get fit.

Can you clarify what you mean by "not ready?" From a cardiovascular standpoint, it seems reasonable to think I am -- I row 30 minutes at 160-170 bpm, and 60 minutes at 155-165bpm, at a pace about 5 seconds/500 slower. Do those numbers seem off to you?

What I have said, and I seem to be having a hard time making it clear so others understand, is that when I attempt (not achieve) good form, it seems impossible to row properly at any pace slower than about 2:05. If I pull gently enough to achieve a pace of 2:15, then my drive takes about 1.3 seconds, so either:

1. I keep the recommended 1:2 ratio of drive/recovery, and my SPM drops to about 12-15, which is too slow; or
2. I keep the SPM above 20 (25 is comfortable for me) but the drive/recovery ratio goes to 1:1.

Now that I think about it, another option (I think) would be to drop the drag factor. But I already have that set much lower than people generally use -- about 95.

Thanks!

Pace 2.15 for a guy your height simply means a pretty long drive time. Ratio 2:1 can,t happen, forget it.
Low drag and low spm are needed.

If you row 2.15 pace rate 25 you need to use such a soft stroke, that you hardly put energy in.

A guy you height should indeed be able to pull 2.05 for longer, if you can,t your fitness is the weak link. Don,t forget you tought yourself a weak, slow stroke. Which means you are poorly trained. Can,t put it anyway else sorry.

[gcanyon]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sQP3wsGbPXk

It's the one called husky power

I'm definitely going to watch that in greater detail, but one thing leaps out at me almost immediately: I see a ton of bent elbows almost immediately in the drive. Some more, some less, but definitely bent. Is that because those guys need to work more at, as everyone says, hanging off the bar, or is that normal and acceptable variation?

[gcanyon]

2. I keep the SPM above 20 (25 is comfortable for me) but the drive/recovery ratio goes to 1:1.

Fix your stroke sequence. Your ratio is all over the place because, in particular, you rush the recovery and do everything at once. You're a tall guy, 20 spm should feel fine. 12 spm is just silly.

1. Hands away
2. Pivot at hips
3. Knees up

Rate (and ratio) is mostly about time spent on the slide during recovery.

Incidentally, if anything I would increase the DF. You will feel the wheel more.

I'll give it a shot, but 20 feels slooooow to me. I wasn't seriously suggesting 12.

[gcanyon]

Somewhere around here there is an animation of proper form. Legs then back(hips) then arms. Search this. Find it and keep it in mind the entire time your row until it is second nature. Only you can do it. This will slow you down.

You will need to take some personal accountability. No one on here can fix your form or inability to control you output:
You need to video tape yourself and correct your form. Start initially with 1 min at a time and look at how you did. Correct and repeat. Only you can do it and you need to be objective. It is not easy but its up to you.
You need to practice limiting the force you are applying to stay within your output limits for the distance you are performing.
You need to correct your posture, you shoulders are rounded and back is humped for the duration of the 5 strokes I took the time to look at in your clip.
You need to increase hamstring flexibility. Your low back is rounded to permit straight legs at full extension and is at minimum contributing to your poor posture.
This is foundational. You wont get there tomorrow. Asking questions on here is great to get a kick in the right direction but you need to sit on the machine and start with the basics. Forget about getting a work out and work on getting the basics right first.

4 pages! Really?

Sorry that the length of this conversation upsets you. I asked a question, I got responses, and asked for clarification/details. Hamstrings have come up more than once -- I'm working on it, trust me! Re: back being humped -- that's a fact of life just standing around, nothing to do with rowing, and it isn't by choice -- let me serve as a warning -- posture sticks, tall people!

Thanks for the advice.

[gcanyon]

And/or there is a lack of fitness to achieve an efficient stroke for 60 min. Maybe for veteran rowers, 60 min is no big deal. It is a long time to row. I virtually never do it, because of the difficulty. And I'm a 70+ rower who does sub-7min 2Ks.

You and I appear to be *very* different rowers! I never quite made sub-7:30 ten years ago. And form notwithstanding, rowing doesn't get strenuously tiring for me until we're talking half marathon. My first marathon was on a whim.

Thanks for the advice. I'll definitely experiment further with different ratios, force levels, etc. as I work on my form.

[Bob S.]

I'm definitely going to watch that in greater detail, but one thing leaps out at me almost immediately: I see a ton of bent elbows almost immediately in the drive. Some more, some less, but definitely bent. Is that because those guys need to work more at, as everyone says, hanging off the bar, or is that normal and acceptable variation?

Among the pictures adorning the walls of my old club was one of an Olympic bronze medalist that shows him in his single breaking his arms early on the drive. When I needled him a bit about it, he admitted that it was a problem he had and that he still working on it many years later.

I have a hunch that most of the young fellows shown on the ergs in that video were new at rowing. Once they are out on the water in a 16 sweep oar barge, the novice coach will be going up and down the center path correcting all the flaws he can spot. Nowadays, of course, there is also sculling at the collegiate level. For that, I suppose that the coaches have to do the fine tuning from their launches.

[gcanyon]

Pace 2.15 for a guy your height simply means a pretty long drive time. Ratio 2:1 can,t happen, forget it.
Low drag and low spm are needed.

If you row 2.15 pace rate 25 you need to use such a soft stroke, that you hardly put energy in.

A guy you height should indeed be able to pull 2.05 for longer, if you can,t your fitness is the weak link. Don,t forget you tought yourself a weak, slow stroke. Which means you are poorly trained. Can,t put it anyway else sorry.

No need to be sorry. Thanks for all the advice. How long would you expect me to be able to pull 2:05?

[gcanyon]

Among the pictures adorning the walls of my old club was one of an Olympic bronze medalist that shows him in his single breaking his arms early on the drive. When I needled him a bit about it, he admitted that it was a problem he had and that he still working on it many years later.

Then I guess I shouldn't beat myself up too much for not having perfect form

[Bob S.]

Among the pictures adorning the walls of my old club was one of an Olympic bronze medalist that shows him in his single breaking his arms early on the drive. When I needled him a bit about it, he admitted that it was a problem he had and that he still working on it many years later.

Then I guess I shouldn't beat myself up too much for not having perfect form

Note that he said that he was still working on it. No need to beat yourself up, but that is not an excuse to ignore it. He is a big guy with lots of arm strength which let him get away with it to some extent. But he also recognized that there was room to improve.

[gcanyon]

... not an excuse to ignore it.

Of course. I'm nursing a cold right now or I'd be practicing every day.