Good form vs. long distance?

[gcanyon]

Sorry in advance for the long post/question. There are a number of potentially related topics involved here.

I've rowed almost 5M meters, and I've been told my rowing form is good (by college athlete rowers) -- but I'm not sure it's 100%. In comparison to the video at http://www.concept2.com/indoor-rowers/t ... que-videos I don't lean forward at the catch -- I'm vertical, or leaning back slightly. This seems to have the effect of turning my power curve into a two-humped camel: a small starting hump, dropping back down near zero force, and then a second, larger hump. Sometimes the drop between the two is so distinct the rower mistakes it for two strokes, and my SPM jumps from 26 to 90 or even 100.

Also, my stroke is slow-ish. I think the mark on the monitor display of the power curve is 1 second, and my stroke takes slightly over 1 second, while my SPM is about 26, so I'm spending just under half my time on the stroke (a 1:1 ratio instead of 1:2).

Today I videoed myself trying to do *exactly* what the video says. I leaned forward before the catch, held my waist/torso/arms rigid while quickly extending my legs, transitioned to levering at the hips, and then transitioned to pulling with the arms. I found that I was rowing harder without really trying to, and my pace dropped from a leisurely 2:20 to about 2:05. I also found that my timing was better: about a 1:2 ratio for stroke:recovery, as portrayed in the video.

I can pretty easily row 2:05 with my usual form. My 2K time is right around 8 minutes. But it's interesting to me that by really focusing on form 2:05 pretty much just happens. I also feel different muscles being used: in particular my butt and hamstrings are getting a workout that doesn't happen without focusing on form.

I haven't tried rowing hard for a 2K this way yet, so I don't know if I might be faster with (very) good form than I am without. But I tried rowing an hour, and found that I'm *definitely* not more efficient this way -- I started fast, and burned out within 20 minutes. It doesn't seem possible to row this way gently enough to be at a rate I can maintain for long distance. I also can't reasonably slow my stroke rate enough to ease up -- I'd have to be rowing at something like 15spm and I'd burn out quickly.

SO:

Do you all agree in general with the video on form? Specifically about the torso lean?

Do you row that way for both sprints and long distance? Or do you use a more relaxed form for long distance?

Any thoughts on any of this are welcome. I can post the videos if that would help. I don't think I have a video of my usual form for comparison, but I could make one if needed.

[jamesg]

The difference is the work in the stroke ((Watts/Rating).

The extra work comes from more use of the legs, which lengthens the stroke. This needs specific technique, as you've seen: arms away, swing forward, legs. Then the pull: legs, swing, arms.

Once the stroke is longer and so more effective, you can reduce the rating to hold power nearly constant and so avoid aerobic overload. Using Watts lets us manage this very accurately.

Aerobic work on the erg is done with an efficient stroke at 18 to 23, so that when racing we can use the same stroke, but without needing very high rating.

[hjs]

Lack in torso movement is pretty common, it really shortens the stroke. But not easy to correct once you ingrained not doing so.

Without really knowing your pb, you don,t know how fast your longer work should be. And nomatter what, going faster is never free, you need the fitness to do so.
Ingraining the change is what you need.

And last point, the fact you do 60 min rows, but don,t know what your 2k shows an imbalance in training. There should be more high intensity stuff done. For a guy like you this will carry over well to longer work and will build strenght.

[Anth_F]

Lack in torso movement is pretty common, it really shortens the stroke. But not easy to correct once you ingrained not doing so.

This a good point Henry makes here!!

This is something i paid particular special attention to when i first started rowing (working on my technique) Spending lots of time just working on my torso movement in the stroke.

Concentrating on good form and rhythm, and being in a strong position at the catch at the beginning of each stroke is something i just do automatically out of habit, every single time i erg... which can only be a good thing.

Sprint work requires more arms. Vastly different technique to endurance work!

It also seems to me that you should start working on spm rates! Learning to keep control... so you get to a point you can hold spm rate consistently. This gives you a lot more control of the machine!!!

OP- post up a video of your technique

[gooseflight]

A video of your own rowing would be very useful I think.

You report that your force curve drops to near zero after the leg drive which means there is no transition in the mid part of your stroke, it's two distinct phases. Clearly this is inefficient.

(To answer one of your other questions: most people use the same stroke for all rowing with the exception of short sprints.)

[gcanyon]

don,t know what your 2k shows an imbalance in training.

I know my 2K -- it's 8:03.4, which at the moment is my highest-ranked distance by percentile in my age/weight/gender. I have rated rows from 100m up to a half marathon. That said, you're absolutely right: I favor long and slow over short and intense. I don't really feel like I've hit my stride until I'm getting up to about 5K.

[skiffrace]

Do you all agree in general with the video on form? Specifically about the torso lean?

Her technique is good. There are some nuances up for discussion (ex. she finishes the pull too high), but they are well beyond entry-level stuff we're discussing here.

The amount of torso lean she shows is correct. Keep in mind that there is no established "requirement" here. Some rowers/crews lean a little less, some a little more.

In general - the longer the distance/slower the stroke rate, the longer the stroke, including torso lean.
In all-out finish sprints some crews row with noticeably less lean. This is done in order to increase the rate => keep the boat from decelarating between the strokes. We're talking the last couple hundred meters in 2K race.

Again, not an issue for you. Concentrate on long, relaxed stroke, using the video as a very good guide.

There is a whole bag of tricks ergers (as opposed to OTW rowers) don't know about.
Ex. technique drills. All OTW rowers, but few ergers do them.
One for you would be upper-body (torso+arms) row only. Here is the part of video that shows it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ai64EEexI0I&t=110

Do it, and do it a lot. Do other drills as well (arms only - no torso, 1/4 slide, 1/2 slide, legs only). Don't think they are a waste of time. You need to learn how to walk before you run

[Oarsome Fitness]

Sorry in advance for the long post/question. There are a number of potentially related topics involved here.

I've rowed almost 5M meters, and I've been told my rowing form is good (by college athlete rowers) -- but I'm not sure it's 100%. In comparison to the video at http://www.concept2.com/indoor-rowers/t ... que-videos I don't lean forward at the catch -- I'm vertical, or leaning back slightly. This seems to have the effect of turning my power curve into a two-humped camel: a small starting hump, dropping back down near zero force, and then a second, larger hump. Sometimes the drop between the two is so distinct the rower mistakes it for two strokes, and my SPM jumps from 26 to 90 or even 100.

Also, my stroke is slow-ish. I think the mark on the monitor display of the power curve is 1 second, and my stroke takes slightly over 1 second, while my SPM is about 26, so I'm spending just under half my time on the stroke (a 1:1 ratio instead of 1:2).

Today I videoed myself trying to do *exactly* what the video says. I leaned forward before the catch, held my waist/torso/arms rigid while quickly extending my legs, transitioned to levering at the hips, and then transitioned to pulling with the arms. I found that I was rowing harder without really trying to, and my pace dropped from a leisurely 2:20 to about 2:05. I also found that my timing was better: about a 1:2 ratio for stroke:recovery, as portrayed in the video.

I can pretty easily row 2:05 with my usual form. My 2K time is right around 8 minutes. But it's interesting to me that by really focusing on form 2:05 pretty much just happens. I also feel different muscles being used: in particular my butt and hamstrings are getting a workout that doesn't happen without focusing on form.

I haven't tried rowing hard for a 2K this way yet, so I don't know if I might be faster with (very) good form than I am without. But I tried rowing an hour, and found that I'm *definitely* not more efficient this way -- I started fast, and burned out within 20 minutes. It doesn't seem possible to row this way gently enough to be at a rate I can maintain for long distance. I also can't reasonably slow my stroke rate enough to ease up -- I'd have to be rowing at something like 15spm and I'd burn out quickly.

SO:

Do you all agree in general with the video on form? Specifically about the torso lean?

Do you row that way for both sprints and long distance? Or do you use a more relaxed form for long distance?

Any thoughts on any of this are welcome. I can post the videos if that would help. I don't think I have a video of my usual form for comparison, but I could make one if needed.

If you are vertical, or even leaning back at the catch, then your form is techncially not very close to 100%! By not having that angle, you are not giving yourself to use explosive power in the hips later in the stoke, which can generate serious pace.

[aussieluke]

Fast hands away was the tip that fixed my technique. And even now when I realise I may be being a bit sloppy or not as efficient as possible, reminding myself about fast hands fixes it.

At the end of the stroke, quickly push the handle away and then your body will follow and swing forward. Then smoothly returns down the slide and you'll be in the correct catch position ready for the next drive.

[Edward4492]

Did I miss something; what are your stats (age, weight, height , gender etc. 8:00 2k is a solid time for a 110lb female; very slow for a 190lb male with 5million meters.

[skiffrace]

Actually, if you can't lean forward, lack of flexibility may be your main problem. How flexible are your hamstrings and glutes? Probably not much.

Fast hands away was the tip that fixed my technique.
And even now when I realise I may be being a bit sloppy or not as efficient as possible, reminding myself about fast hands fixes it.

Not quite true. Fast hands is the old, obsolete way, at least when rowing at trainig pace. Take a look at this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11YH_7Esfjc

At the end of the stroke, quickly push the handle away and then your body will follow and swing forward.

Swing forward, but only to vertical position. During the first phase of the slide, your trunk should stay vertical - it is difficult to slide when leaning forwards. Start leaning forward during the latter part of the slide.

[Anth_F]

We need your statistics, and a video of your side on technique, for more insight.

Then we can offer even more advice, and critique where necessary!!!

[aussieluke]

Actually, if you can't lean forward, lack of flexibility may be your main problem. How flexible are your hamstrings and glutes? Probably not much.

Fast hands away was the tip that fixed my technique.
And even now when I realise I may be being a bit sloppy or not as efficient as possible, reminding myself about fast hands fixes it.

Not quite true. Fast hands is the old, obsolete way, at least when rowing at trainig pace. Take a look at this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11YH_7Esfjc

At the end of the stroke, quickly push the handle away and then your body will follow and swing forward.

Swing forward, but only to vertical position. During the first phase of the slide, your trunk should stay vertical - it is difficult to slide when leaning forwards. Start leaning forward during the latter part of the slide.

I didn't say it was the sole basis of my technique, just that it fixes the sequencing of arms, body, legs and makes sure I do swing forwards enough. I end up in a better position at the catch when I do.

[gcanyon]

A video of your own rowing would be very useful I think.

You report that your force curve drops to near zero after the leg drive which means there is no transition in the mid part of your stroke, it's two distinct phases. Clearly this is inefficient.

(To answer one of your other questions: most people use the same stroke for all rowing with the exception of short sprints.)

I'll post a video in a separate comment.

I don't think the drop is after the leg drive, I think it's during. My curve ends up looking something like this: https://www.dropbox.com/s/nhd7bnqjoqt7p ... 6.png?dl=0

I'm pretty sure there's no visible break in my stroke, but obviously from a force standpoint, there's something going on.

Thanks for the answer.

[gcanyon]

So here's roughly what my force curve looked like before I started working on this new form. I don't have video of me rowing this way, but I assure you that there is nothing obvious about my stroke that corresponds to the dip shown here:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/nhd7bnqjoqt7p ... 6.png?dl=0

This is slow motion video of me trying to ensure that I am leaning slightly forward at the catch and leaning slightly back at the end of the stroke. If I look inconsistent here, it's mostly because I'm focusing on doing something different, not because my stroke is normally this variable. Also, I think I was trying to do a few different SPM during this, so don't think that under ordinary circumstances my SPM varies this much. Finally, sorry for the screwy focus -- the phone fixated on the weight machine I had set it on. Still, I think it's pretty straightforward to see what I'm doing, even if you might not be able to pick me out of a lineup

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fCCVAX0uPE

Here's roughly what my force curve looks like *if* I am doing the new form *and* I am pulling harder than I can do for long distance -- maybe 2:05 or so. Even with the new form, if I try to row at a pace that I can maintain for distance, like 2:15 or 2:20, then the curve flattens significantly, and tends back toward the two-hump shape linked above. To correct that at distance-friendly paces I have to either: slow the SPM *way* down, maybe to something like 15 SPM, and even then I don't think I'd be able to maintain the effort (although I've never tried distance at that slow a SPM); *or* I have to make absolutely sure to relax my shoulders so that they both pop forward at the catch, jerking my shoulders and the handle/chain to get that nice steep upslope in initial force.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/2eo3bgko3lfr6 ... 5.png?dl=0

Stats for the curious:
Male
Age: 53
Height: 6' 4"
Weight: 175

Recent PBs -- note that I don't take these seriously. I don't prepare, I just do it whenever I feel like it, and I don't leave it all on the erg. If you bet me $100, I could beat all of these tomorrow. Nevertheless, don't think I'm taking it easy. My average heart rate during these ranges from about 145 bpm for the marathon up to about 175 bpm for the 2K. I could definitely go harder, but not *much* harder.

100M: 18.4
2K: 8:03.4
30M: 7003
60M: 13,356
Half: 1:36:19.5
Full: 3:29:17.3