Sprints and Stuff- training/questions 1k and below

General discussion on Training. How to get better on your erg, how to use your erg to get better at another sport, or anything else about improving your abilities.
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hjs
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Re: Sprints and Stuff- training/questions 1k and below

Post by hjs » February 23rd, 2016, 4:53 pm

RBFC wrote:I will add that the addition of the sprint distances to the records board may ultimately affect the distribution of which events gain popularity. CrossFit, arguably one of the most popular fitness/sports in the world, has no Olympic event. They created their own games. I'd envision C2 sprint rowing comps becoming more popular, despite the bashing from traditionalists.

Lee
Lee, I don,t get you. You complain about the negativity towards sprinting, but at the same time you are negative.

Think you could be right, I don,t get why concept2 does invest more in sprintraces, certainly with crossfit now. It could broaden their market big time.

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Re: Sprints and Stuff- training/questions 1k and below

Post by Shawn Baker » February 23rd, 2016, 5:43 pm

Compare and contrast

Graham Benton recently broke 1k 40+ WR @ 2:45

Sam Loch recently set a 1k PB @ 2:45

Benton is 10+ years older but 6" taller and has a 2k PB of 5:42 and trains quite a bit of volume currently

Loch former Australian Olympian who did years of hi mileage rowing but now states he hadn't done very much at all in a few years but is focusing on getting as strong as possible

Can one develop an aerobic base an then maintain it for years with minimal distance work?

Is there a point in which distance rowing yields no more gain and one must then get stronger to improve?

Let's frame this from the perspective of a 1k to keep it sprint relevant
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Re: Sprints and Stuff- training/questions 1k and below

Post by RBFC » February 23rd, 2016, 5:47 pm

hjs wrote:
RBFC wrote:I will add that the addition of the sprint distances to the records board may ultimately affect the distribution of which events gain popularity. CrossFit, arguably one of the most popular fitness/sports in the world, has no Olympic event. They created their own games. I'd envision C2 sprint rowing comps becoming more popular, despite the bashing from traditionalists.

Lee
Lee, I don,t get you. You complain about the negativity towards sprinting, but at the same time you are negative.

Think you could be right, I don,t get why concept2 does invest more in sprintraces, certainly with crossfit now. It could broaden their market big time.
There was nothing negative in that post, merely observation of what I believe will happen in the near future.

I was talked down to and insulted in previous postings and threads by individuals who can only view the C2 through the lens of their own compartmentalized interests. A few 2K guys (you have been among them) continually downplay the contribution of strength training to fast rowing times. I offered scientific-based information (% of max output) in support of higher maximum power and have had many negative responses from that group. Jealousy is not attractive. I have left the threads where distance is discussed, as well as the typical 2K-prep training, because I have little interest in spending that much time on the erg. I, like others, prefer to get steady-state work via running, etc.

Of course Ross trained on the erg in order to improve his technique. I don't believe that he did anything near to the typical 2K programming as mentioned around here to get his current time; he walked in the door with such power that he could "cruise" (relatively) at speeds beyond the max of most. I don't think you will find anyone else saying he has too much power, that's reserved for folks who come into the sprint thread and speak negatively of power. I guess there's no room on the C2 forum for anyone who doesn't see rowing (and its place in their athletic life) exactly as you do.

Shawn, I hoped we would be able to discuss the melding of power training and erg sprints here, but your tolerance is much greater than mine.

Lee
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Re: Sprints and Stuff- training/questions 1k and below

Post by hjs » February 23rd, 2016, 6:05 pm

Benton is a bit older.

1k, you can approach it from the 500 side, or from the 2k side.

Benton also just broke the 6k wr and clearly trained volume. He is from origian pretty fast also, no pure slow fiber guy.

From the other I simply don,t know enough, but at the moment clearly goes for strenght.

Overall I think the 1k is not fully developed, relative the record is a bit slower. It is ofcourse clear that raw strenght is much more needed compared to 2k work.
Also rate, the powerhouses will rate lower, the top guys on the 2k rate often mid, high 30, not seldom above 40 in the final split. Tall guys.

You tried the 2k 24 just yet and with clearly enough strenght, the limiting factor looks fitness. Don,t forget that the number one factor is base talent. We can train what we want, but we can,t improve our potential.

For you, raw speed/low pull is plenty. Its the endurance that is your soft stop. You could try to alter your interval work, shorten the rests and increese the volume. For 1k, 250 meter reps on 1 for instance. Paced around 1k.

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Re: Sprints and Stuff- training/questions 1k and below

Post by Shawn Baker » February 23rd, 2016, 6:07 pm

Lee, I'd say in the grand scheme of things it's no big deal- it does seem hard to escape the 2k training only mind set that has for years been the main focus for rowing- the indoor version obviously has differences from OTW- guys like me Ross, Dirk Moeller would sink the boat- sprint training is clearly different from 2k training and hopefully this thread can serve as an area to advance it. I believe as you do that the sprints are gaining popularity and will continue to do so. I also think that from a general health standpoint I'd rather have a good 500m time than a good marathon time (but that's just me and everyone has their own opinions)
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Re: Sprints and Stuff- training/questions 1k and below

Post by Shawn Baker » February 23rd, 2016, 6:14 pm

Henry, sure I don't have the fitness at the moment to get a max 2k and as you know I'm not focusing at all for that distance (also that was not close to a max effort)- how much fitness does one need to go 1:17 at 500- 6:30 2k?, 17:00 5k, 2:55 1k? I don't think we clearly know. Like wise how much strength do we need for the same 500lb deadlift, 250lb power clean etc..
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Re: Sprints and Stuff- training/questions 1k and below

Post by hjs » February 23rd, 2016, 6:25 pm

RBFC wrote:

There was nothing negative in that post, merely observation of what I believe will happen in the near future.

I was talked down to and insulted in previous postings and threads by individuals who can only view the C2 through the lens of their own compartmentalized interests. A few 2K guys (you have been among them) continually downplay the contribution of strength training to fast rowing times. I offered scientific-based information (% of max output) in support of higher maximum power and have had many negative responses from that group. Jealousy is not attractive. I have left the threads where distance is discussed, as well as the typical 2K-prep training, because I have little interest in spending that much time on the erg. I, like others, prefer to get steady-state work via running, etc.

Of course Ross trained on the erg in order to improve his technique. I don't believe that he did anything near to the typical 2K programming as mentioned around here to get his current time; he walked in the door with such power that he could "cruise" (relatively) at speeds beyond the max of most. I don't think you will find anyone else saying he has too much power, that's reserved for folks who come into the sprint thread and speak negatively of power. I guess there's no room on the C2 forum for anyone who doesn't see rowing (and its place in their athletic life) exactly as you do.

Shawn, I hoped we would be able to discuss the melding of power training and erg sprints here, but your tolerance is much greater than mine.

Lee
I am not a endurance guy, I much more have an over background. I just see how the very fast towers train, some do strenght, some not at all. No around 5.40 erger ever did this on low volume meters. It is what it it.
I dwnplay speed not at all, you dont see that everything above 1 min needs endurance, always in every sport. I like speed and power. Think the short stuff is nice.

To much strenght, relative. Strenght costs endurance and vice versa. 500 m is still 55/60 reps, nomatter what that takes always endurance next to raw power.

Ross did not just improve his technique, he clearly got a much better conditioning, the early gains we get in the first 3/6 months are pretty big. That has zero to do with strenght. Simply how training works.

And your last line... Pfffff boy you have long toes. Come on, its a public place. And you can,t say I don,t try to come up with arguments.
Your view about health and strenght. I am 49 now, from my teens I have done weights almost always, and relative speaking my strenght is still my strongest point. If you call that going against you, I really don,t get your thinking.

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Re: Sprints and Stuff- training/questions 1k and below

Post by hjs » February 23rd, 2016, 6:31 pm

Shawn Baker wrote:Henry, sure I don't have the fitness at the moment to get a max 2k and as you know I'm not focusing at all for that distance (also that was not close to a max effort)- how much fitness does one need to go 1:17 at 500- 6:30 2k?, 17:00 5k, 2:55 1k? I don't think we clearly know. Like wise how much strength do we need for the same 500lb deadlift, 250lb power clean etc..
We don,t no. If that 2k was not max, forget me mentioning it.

I just see you training/TT and your weak link, in both the 1min and 500 is the finish. Ofcourse training is also doing what you love. No doubt you like the weight etc stuff.
And I also think, nomatter what you do, relative your finish will always be the weakest link. Like for me it aways is/was the lack of raw power.

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Re: Sprints and Stuff- training/questions 1k and below

Post by left coaster » February 23rd, 2016, 6:51 pm

It's interesting how these types of threads quickly become circular and redundant.

To help change gears, can we talk a bit about training for 1K distances? I think this is the next reasonable goal for me. Although not stellar, I'm happy enough with my current 500m time and would like to draw that distance out a bit. As I mentioned above, it would seem that anything beyond 800m has me at a genetic disadvantage so 1000m should have me in a world of pain every time towards the end.

Let's talk 'bottom up' approaches rather than 'top down' i.e. not adapting 2K training for a 1K middle distance (we all know 1K isn't really a sprint either). I'm thinking a waterfall approach to training for a 1K may work well 500, 300 200 or something with 30 second rests or some other partial recovery rest period. Rinse and repeat every 5 minutes until you barf. Wait 4 days (doing some low intensity alternate exercise) for full recovery, go again.
100m: 15.5, 1Min: 353, 500m: 1:29, 5K: 19:41.2, 10K: 40:46

"The difficult is what takes a little time; the impossible is what takes a little longer"

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Re: Sprints and Stuff- training/questions 1k and below

Post by Shawn Baker » February 23rd, 2016, 7:10 pm

One strategy can be to row at your target time (say 1:37) as far as possible rest until fully recovered and repeat several times! Probably rating 34-38 ish depending on size. Crossfit style met cons lasting 5 minutes might be of use. Steady diet of squatting, dead lifting- bike sprints, rowing sprints, running sprints
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Re: Sprints and Stuff- training/questions 1k and below

Post by left coaster » February 23rd, 2016, 7:18 pm

Thanks Shawn, I'll give that a go. It's interesting to me how cross-fit developed along side the 5 minute MMA round. When I was young enough to be ring ready we still trained for 2 minute rounds, me so old!

I need to get back to the gym but to be honest I'm super anxious about re-injuring my neck. I may just go do a few drop in's, I've been telling myself this for a couple months but haven't gotten the courage yet. It's funny to remember having quads so pumped that when I would lay on my side my hip bones wouldn't come in contact with the floor. I'm no stranger to the squat rack, we just haven't seen each other for a while.
100m: 15.5, 1Min: 353, 500m: 1:29, 5K: 19:41.2, 10K: 40:46

"The difficult is what takes a little time; the impossible is what takes a little longer"

6'1", 235, 49yrs, male
Started rowing September 2015

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Re: Sprints and Stuff- training/questions 1k and below

Post by christopherregisryan » February 23rd, 2016, 7:59 pm

left coaster wrote:It's interesting how these types of threads quickly become circular and redundant.

To help change gears, can we talk a bit about training for 1K distances? I think this is the next reasonable goal for me. Although not stellar, I'm happy enough with my current 500m time and would like to draw that distance out a bit. As I mentioned above, it would seem that anything beyond 800m has me at a genetic disadvantage so 1000m should have me in a world of pain every time towards the end.

Let's talk 'bottom up' approaches rather than 'top down' i.e. not adapting 2K training for a 1K middle distance (we all know 1K isn't really a sprint either). I'm thinking a waterfall approach to training for a 1K may work well 500, 300 200 or something with 30 second rests or some other partial recovery rest period. Rinse and repeat every 5 minutes until you barf. Wait 4 days (doing some low intensity alternate exercise) for full recovery, go again.
FWIW, I trained for a 1k race this year. I took a top down and a bottom up approach during a ten week build period. I did a good amount of UT2 steady state 4 days a week (top down). I did speed intervals at target 1k pace (8x250m; 5x375m; 4x500m) one day a week and one CrossFit workout a week. I PR'd by 0.7 splits, but I wanted to do better. Even with the emphasis on aerobic work throughout the training season, I felt like O2 deprivation stopped me from going faster rather than muscle fatigue. I will probably use a similar program for my 1k during next year's race season. Best. - Chris

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Re: Sprints and Stuff- training/questions 1k and below

Post by left coaster » February 23rd, 2016, 8:15 pm

If O2 sat was your limiting factor should you then swap the UT2 for UT1 but perhaps with less frequency? Say 2x a week with more recovery time? At the risk of poking the bees nest on the forum, UT2 is a recovery pace not a training pace, right?
100m: 15.5, 1Min: 353, 500m: 1:29, 5K: 19:41.2, 10K: 40:46

"The difficult is what takes a little time; the impossible is what takes a little longer"

6'1", 235, 49yrs, male
Started rowing September 2015

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Re: Sprints and Stuff- training/questions 1k and below

Post by christopherregisryan » February 23rd, 2016, 8:27 pm

left coaster wrote:If O2 sat was your limiting factor should you then swap the UT2 for UT1 but perhaps with less frequency? Say 2x a week with more recovery time? At the risk of poking the bees nest on the forum, UT2 is a recovery pace not a training pace, right?
UT2 is definitely supposed to be a training pace. For me, it is HR 130-140. My recovery rows are usually HR sub 130. The knock on UT1 is in the recovery time it requires. This is especially crucial for those on the long side of 50. My approach this year was "If I am going to do a workout requiring a recovery day, I am going to do intervals at 5k, 2k or 1k pace and get a stronger adaptation". On the other hand, UT2 lets me work my heart and lungs while allowing quicker recovery. I did a lot of UT1 during the 14/15 season and got mediocre improvements across the distance spectrum. When Greg Smith began posting some of the studies describing the benefits of polarization, I gave it a try. Despite being a year older, I had much better gains in the 15/16 season using a polarized approach. Best. - Chris

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Re: Sprints and Stuff- training/questions 1k and below

Post by mdpfirrman » February 23rd, 2016, 8:27 pm

left coaster wrote:If O2 sat was your limiting factor should you then swap the UT2 for UT1 but perhaps with less frequency? Say 2x a week with more recovery time? At the risk of poking the bees nest on the forum, UT2 is a recovery pace not a training pace, right?
Not my understanding. That's what the whole point of the book 80 / 20 Running is about. I'm ordering that book. It's one of the most highly reviewed endurance books in the last ten years. This is covered in the Polarization thread (but people read what they want to read) that 80% should be low end UT2 work. Now this has nothing to do with this thread, but it is an important distinction.

Polarization means you want to work at the extreme ends - slow and really hard. Not much in the middle until nearing race time. My recovery rows I've just modified to be around 120 to 125 (like Chris). Fitzgerald (the author of 80/20 Running) that you should be able to nose breathe on recovery work. For me, that's around 125 HR or so.
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