rowing "fasted"

[RoarDog30]

For some reason I have no problem eating a light meal 30-60 minutes before hitting the rower and actually prefer having some food in my stomach.

However, before a running workout, I can't have anything but water or gatoraide within 2.5-3 hours or I will get side stitches or feel like puking.

[DavidA]

Have started rowing over the summer at 19:30 GMT so thats 8:30am local time.

I cannot eat 2 to 3 hours before anything intensive and even at the slow morning pace I maybe have a few sips of water first but no food, have always found that this works better for me as any food in my stomach feels like a real handicap. I thought this was pretty normal, no way you would try to go hard out on a full stomach.

I am similar - I can't have eaten within a couple of hours of my row.
I eat, and especially drink, afterwards.

David

[j1huegel]

I row and run fasted all of the time. As a low-carb eater, I generally do not look to rely on carbohydrates for energy. I have read a great deal about energy sources during exercise and have found that once your body has adapted to low levels of carbohydrates, it can become conditioned to preferentially using stored fat, particularly in bouts of exercise that are not intense (say rows over 5k as an example). The general term is keto-adapted, where your body released and metabolizes ketones for energy.

Consuming carbs to support long bouts of exercise is not necessary. I have completed 3-4 hour runs consuming water and felt just fine. My half marathon rows were all completed with only water taken during the row, and a sugar free electrolyte drink after. If your body is keto-adapted, you will have less of a tendency to "bonk". The key is to minimize the impact that carbohydrates have on releasing insulin and blood glucose levels, which promote the storage of fat and discourage the metabolism of stored fat. We carry around 100,000 calories of stored fat, and only 1200 to 1600 calories of stored glycogen.

The smartest guy I know who has personally studied and experimented on fasting and ketogenic adaptation is Dr. Peter Attia. Here is a great post along this line of thought: http://eatingacademy.com/how-a-low-carb ... erformance.

[Balkan boy]

The smartest guy I know who has personally studied and experimented on fasting and ketogenic adaptation is Dr. Peter Attia. Here is a great post along this line of thought: http://eatingacademy.com/how-a-low-carb ... erformance.

Could you please ask your friend for an answer on this:

The real question is how can you get the best of both worlds? That is, is there a way to reap the benefits of keto-adaptation of on the aerobic side, without any of the anaerobic cap costs?
In short, I believe the answer is yes, and I look forward to writing about this in great detail in the near future.

I'm noticing much of what he describes in myself after 10 weeks of keto.
Sub AT work has become much easier, but long sprints (i.e. 4x2000m) are much harder, and my legs turn to lead after the first split.

[Tim K.]

The smartest guy I know who has personally studied and experimented on fasting and ketogenic adaptation is Dr. Peter Attia. Here is a great post along this line of thought: http://eatingacademy.com/how-a-low-carb ... erformance.

Could you please ask your friend for an answer on this:

The real question is how can you get the best of both worlds? That is, is there a way to reap the benefits of keto-adaptation of on the aerobic side, without any of the anaerobic cap costs?
In short, I believe the answer is yes, and I look forward to writing about this in great detail in the near future.

I'm noticing much of what he describes in myself after 10 weeks of keto.
Sub AT work has become much easier, but long sprints (i.e. 4x2000m) are much harder, and my legs turn to lead after the first split.

As much as I like listening to Peter, and I do not want to take anything away from him at all, he has done a tremendous amount of work, from what I understand he is primarily a N=1 experiment. Jeff Volek and Stephen Phinney are my go to source for keto adaptation.

Balken boy, the issue you are having may very well be a mineral issue. Sodium depletion is apparently a common problem in keto adapted individuals due to an increased clearance rate in that state. I think their current recommendation is 7 grams of sodium/day, I think.

There is an ‘art’ to electrolyte and mineral management that is key to avoiding side effects and ensuring success.

From: http://www.artandscienceoflowcarb.com/low-carb-diets/


Ctrl F on this page and search sodium, there is a brief explanation: http://www.meandmydiabetes.com/2011/04/ ... high-carb/

[hjs]

Balken boy, the issue you are having may very well be a mineral issue. Sodium depletion is apparently a common problem in keto adapted individuals due to an increased clearance rate in that state. I think their current recommendation is 7 grams of sodium/day, I think.

There is an ‘art’ to electrolyte and mineral management that is key to avoiding side effects and ensuring success.

From: http://www.artandscienceoflowcarb.com/low-carb-diets/


Ctrl F on this page and search sodium, there is a brief explanation: http://www.meandmydiabetes.com/2011/04/ ... high-carb/

[/quote]

If so, why would only the shorter anaerobic work suffer? I myself found the same. Hard long anaerobic work which is nasty on its own, but on low glycogeen the legs hurt even more.

[Tim K.]

Sorry, I dont know. Im no more qualified than most anyone on here to answer that. I was just posting up the info I had found.

[hjs]

Sorry, I dont know. Im no more qualified than most anyone on here to answer that. I was just posting up the info I had found.

Its very likely the glycogeen depletion, our lactic system needs enough glycogeen to fully function.

[Balkan boy]

Its very likely the glycogeen depletion, our lactic system needs enough glycogeen to fully function.

That's how it seems to me.
I've been reading about it and I may try a slight carb loading (50g) half an hour before workout, and a little bit of low-glycimic carbs after workout.

Regarding sodium,
I pay attention to this, and I think I ingest enough of it during the day.
Sodium deficiency presents itself more in the form of muscle cramps. What I refereed to above is just complete tiredness of the muscle. It very rarely happened to me in the legs, especially for this distance.

[Tim K.]

Ya, I agree with both of you. I didnt read Balken boys post well enough. Once your keto adapted the amount of glycogen in muscle tissue is substantially reduced (somewhere around half), which is the fuel used primarily used once you exceed ~70-80%vo2 max, limiting this activity. Low sodium results in a general, all activity feeling like someone "pulled your plug out of the wall" and un-wellness

Edit: If you skip ahead to 41:50 youll find a curve of what to expect in terms of where your energy is coming from: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQbgdRoAfOo

[j1huegel]

I''m far from an expert on the subject, but I have been low-carb for several years. Here's what I have learned, from Volek/Phinney, Drs Attia and Taubes, and others.

Ketosis may limit maximum efforts if your glycogen stores are depleted, as the body prefers glucose over ketones when in anerobic state. Keto adaptation can improve this - exercising while fasting, where your blood insulin and glucose levels are low, will improve over time.

In Peter Attia's "n=1" study on himself, where "before" was prior to keto adaptation and "after" followed 12 weeks of ketogenic adaptation and training:
1. The "all day" aerobic output rate (60% max V02), shifted from 95% glycogen/5% fat to 22% glycogen/78% fat.
2. The Anerobic shift (where glycogen use was >50% of energy source) shifted from 500 cal/hr to 1000 cal/hr. Twice the output rate per hour at the point of 50% glycogen/50% fat usage. On an erg, using the Cal to Watts to Pace (C=4W/1.639+300), Pace=(2.8/W)^-3, that's a shift from 2:42 split to under 2:00. (Math says 1:47?!)
3. Anerobic threshold training (where body accumulates lactic acid faster than it can clear it), showed a shift from 100% glycogen dependence to 70% after conditioning. His AT also rose from 930 cal/hr to 1140 cal/hr.
4. However at max V02, his performance did drop about 10%. He said:

"The one drawback, it seems, to completely eliminating carbohydrates from my diet was a loss of all-out top end power. For someone like me, this doesn’t seem to hinder performance too much, but if I was trying to win an Olympic gold medal in the 400 meter run or the 100 meter freestyle, it seems I’d be better off with some carbohydrate in my diet."

For very long workouts where glycogen depletion is possible, Attia has experimented with very long chain carbohydrates (Generation UCAN) to provide access to carbs for energy and glycogen replenishment without having an insulin response disrupt ketosis, which allows fat metabolism to still be utilized.

Glycogen replacement via carb ingestion is best done after the hard workout, as muscular insulin sensitivity is increased after glycogen depletion, and any insulin response won't disturb fat metabolism during exercise. Fully replenished, muscle alone can store 800-2000 calories of glycogen and the liver 250-500 more. A one-hour row at 2:00 split burns about 1000 calories. Keto adaptation can dramatically shift how much glycogen is needed during the row.

For weight management and the other health benefits of low carb living, I have accepted that my "all out" 100-500m efforts may be limited, and continue to follow a low carb, fasting exercise regimen.

I'd be interested to know if other low-carb rowers have strategies for glycogen replacement, etc.

[drachma]

Regarding Attia's experiment,

he found that after keto adaptation, his VO2max was reduced.

Did he perform the "after" performance test in a state of ketosis?

It would be interesting to see what happens if, after a long time in ketosis getting keto adapted, then performing the test on 2 separate days in (1) a state of ketosis and (2) after a carb re-feed.

basically, when becoming keto adapted, do you still lose the VO2max if you carb up before the test? does carbing up temporarily negate the other benefits at lower intensities?