Basic training questions

[jackarabit]

I need to see that 30-36 rate at df191! Maybe I'll learn something? Every time I've seen that, it was quarter slide, arms and back doing most of the work.

[ergo sum]

I need to see that 30-36 rate at df191! Maybe I'll learn something? Every time I've seen that, it was quarter slide, arms and back doing most of the work.

Jack, that doesn't sound like me, my arms are along for the ride and have to keep up, and the legs are fully extended, not like a lady's sit-up! I can do 34 for the first three minutes maybe, but it drops to 31 for most of the run and the last 4 minutes it drops below 30 (to 29). The overall run is a solid 30, and if it is on the other machine it is 31 overall, but the times are worse by a second or second and a half per split, and I feel worn out in a bad way. But since I'm a number watcher (compete against my own numbers), I knock myself out anyway on the 157 df when I'm stuck on that machine because I am used to getting the better numbers on the 191 df regular machine. Usually when I get off the 157 df like that, I feel like throwing up for the first 5 seconds, which doesn't happen on the 191 df 0.5 to 1 s/m lower and for whatever reason more beat arms even though the work is measures as less. Here's yesterday's PM4 data, which although it was my second best, I didn't break 1000 m on the last 4 minutes which is almost the same as 1000 cal/hr which is my target to stay above always, so I wasn't happy with the run (those last 6 meters to 1000 are a huge part of my satisfaction with the run. 1000 m in 4 minutes usually registers as 999 cal/hr, so it takes 1001 m or 1002 m in 4 minutes to get the double 1000 that makes me happy. I know that my calories actually burned are a little less because the web page says they are for a 175 lb person (79.4 kg), it's psychological a motivation just to see it. The time is 20 minute run in two timed intervals without any rest times (zero for rests between, just rowing through) This is @ 191 df:

time m pace stroke watt cal/h
20 5103 01:57.50 30 215 1041 347 cal/run
16 4110 01:56.70 31 220 1056 17.60 cal/min
4 994 02:00.70 29 199 984 16.40 cal/min

[Bob S.]

I was thinking about the techniques and damper factors and all I can say they make each stroke harder because now I'm thinking yeah ... if the drag is lower I can do better ... kind of like someone yelling "relax" when you are in the middle of your time trial!

The guy who has coxed me to 3 WRs yelled the equivalent of that for many of the strokes that I took throughout those races. Punch! and gliiiiiide. Punch! and gliiiiiide. What that meant was to push as hard as I could with the legs on the drive and relax, taking my time, on the recovery.

Incidentally, my df was probably around 115, but what I use is probably not relevant for young rowers. In my earlier says of erging (from about age 68 on), I was using a Model B and the df was probably around 165 - the old PM1 monitor did not have the capacity to show df and the cage of the B was mostly open. When I first encountered a model C, with its closed cage, there was a decided drop in feel of the resistance of the handle and it just did not feel right to me, but I was still able to perform at the same level. Later I got used to the more up-to-date models and PMs, learned about damper setting and drag factor, and found that, if I worked a bit on technique, I could get much better results with relatively low settings.

[ergo sum]

Bob,

Some one should do a cartoon, or better yet make a video, that shows a locker room with a coach using that line, while some guy in the back is casually lying back a bit, knees to his chin, calmly slipping his pants over both feet at the same time. At that point, the coach yells, "Goddamn it, Ferguson, stop that!"

Not exactly what you had in mind, but a quick internet search turned up someone who's catching on to your idea with this animated image:
http://img.izismile.com/img/img7/201402 ... 550_10.gif

The guy who has coxed me to 3 WRs yelled the equivalent of that for many of the strokes that I took throughout those races. Punch! and gliiiiiide. Punch! and gliiiiiide. What that meant was to push as hard as I could with the legs on the drive and relax, taking my time, on the recovery.

That's awesome (the WR's!)! Maybe I caught on to the basic trick of it after all for a time trial at least. Note the similarity of your explanation with my so-called natural cycle & clock watching quoting what I posted earlier:

I don't have the strength in my arms and believe the routine I've settled into it's more the leg strength, since that is what I'm using to get the high s/m's where most of the flywheel gets accelerated. My understanding is I make up the lower power with frequency (stroke rate)for my level of experience and muscular endowment for what it lacks.

Here's the thing. I don't have the strength in my arms and believe the routine I've settled into it's more the leg strength, since that is what I'm using to get the high s/m's where most of the flywheel gets accelerated

The whole time is like a three cylinder car going 120 kph for me.

If you take a moment to think about my attempt to explain, you'll probably see that the punch and glide you described is where I'm going all out to lift the acceleration of the flywheel initially with the legs (punch) and then since my arms are not strong they go along for the ride...as the legs straighten I relax as much as possible and the arms are just following through (glide). There is a tiny bit of wasted energy in my stroke since even with the follow through of the arms they usually mildly thump the handle on my stomach. But I played around with that and can't control it to just graze the stomach at the end of the pull without sacrificing my arms' as it is lower output, so there is a little wasted arm motion I wish I could conserve. But I can't so far without dropping split pace 2-3 seconds. Maybe leaning further back might help but I'm not that "honed" that changes are easy to incorporate, which is a bad thing about not working on better technique sooner, I'm sure.

The 3 cylinder car on the highway trying to keep up with the muscle cars: Each puttered explosion in the cylinder is a punch and then the piston just glides. But to get the speed the car has no choice than to increase the stroke rate to make up for the extra power of the other cars, without the displacement in the muscle or cylinder how else could a tiny car keep up? That's sort of my way I think about myself, as the runs are punishing, but I usually feel great shortly after finishing. What you say, together with Lindsay's suggestion about a measured, deliberate pace sort of tell me the same thing. I'm just not sure my arms can pull the extra needed to accelerate the flywheel back into the money performance zone as much as you during the relatively relaxed glide. I didn't think training all out like that every time would put me at a disadvantage. I thought it might just make it harder than it has to be, but at the same time drive the arms beyond their capacity. Having to keep up is different from the free and probably nicer form of just pulling as much as you think you can. Hopefully I won't cause any damage if I continued this way (unclear now that I will), but I don't see any issue so far, and I have a chronic strained muscle on my left side that used to pain me in bed and at other times, but the rowing seems to very surprisingly not affect it and actually diminish the pain a great deal. That injury was a care-giving injury from lifting a Parent from Her seat in a cantilever position for several years, and rowing has brought welcomed relief and perhaps a way to heal that, though that might be wishful thinking.

[Bob S.]

Not exactly what you had in mind, but a quick internet search turned up someone who's catching on to your idea with this animated image:
http://img.izismile.com/img/img7/201402 ... 550_10.gif

Fantastic. But no, what I had in mind was that the average person can easily put a pair of pants on both legs at the same time. It is not easy for some one standing up or sitting up straight, but seated in a reclining position, it is not hard to lift both feet of the floor and slip the pants over both at once.

The guys in that video might really blow a football coaches mind, but the gymnastics coach ought to approve.

With regard to the rest of your response. I think that you misunderstood what I said about relaxing. It is not during any part of the drive. It is only on the recovery. The legs start off the drive with a hard push and the arms finish off with a hard pull, with the back swing bridging the other 2 movements. On the recovery, the hands need to get away smoothly and quickly enough to clear the knees, but there should be no rush to come back up the slide to the catch - that is the time to relax. Take your time sneaking up on the catch. The 26' shrimp trawlers of my early days used a Hicks four cycle, one cylinder engine. It had a sort of similar action. I can still remember the sounds, ka-pooh, clickety-clickety-click, with the exhaust, intake, and compression cycles in total taking more than 3 times as long as the power cycle. Found it!:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ueOAjLD7fhE

Not a great analogy, but maybe it gets the idea across.

[ergo sum]

OK, I'm really hoping to get comments on the technique I use, so instead of making more bad descriptions, I got today's row (October 19) on video and uploaded it on youtube (had my doubts but I think it worked), like was suggested earlier in the thread. It is the first time I'm seeing myself row so it was eye-opening.

Video on youtube - success!
https://youtu.be/621gBBjpY8A

Hope you all are still around to comment on how bad it is, or if anything looks right, really anything at all since I'm here to learn! The video starts about 10 seconds after the rowing and films a bit more than two minutes, when I start faster always to give myself an edge early on that is nice to see as things get harder. Unfortunately this is my second attempt after I started and she couldn't record because the phone locked. So today's row was probably 20-30 meters shorter since I had done a minute and a half of about 36 s/m for nothing except to get tired sooner, since I had to stop, fix the phone and reprogram a do over from the beginning immediately so the nice random bystander I bugged could record me and get on with her day. Thanks again!

Great analogy Bob, I love watching old motors working, they have some amazing movement, and also tinkering even with 2-stoke engines! I follow your logic on the return rest, and I guess I was confusing the lower energy I apply after the initial acceleration about 1/3 into the drive mostly by the legs. I had to think about it rowing today to realize better where the rest and where the max energy was being spent.
David

[hjs]

Here I go, not said anything, its not often 100% appreciated what I say. I really really disagree about everything you say about drag, someone with not much strenght should play his strenght, not weakness.

In the clip, three, make that 4 big foulds. Whichs in itself is great, you can relative easy become a lot better if you fix which can be done in a few weeks.

First, look at your knees, those get way to far over you feet, the shin should Not come beyond vertical.

Number one is a result of number two, your back does nothing, you don,t rock over at all. After the stroke you back should forward to roughly 11 oclock, the gap between your legs and chest should be very small. You have picked up this habbit by using that bizarre drag. You can,t get that round using a normal stroke.

Three look at the straps, your feet pull hard on those, all that energy is waisted. Before you finish the stroke, you start the next, they energy that now goes into the straps should go into the chain.

Four, rating, going up and down the rail like a bunny is lots of waisted energy, slow down, make the stroke stronger and the recovery relax and slow.

Solution. Drop the drag to 120!! Row strapless to learn the finish the stroke and slow the stroke, you will hate this at first.
Focus on rocking over, and sitting tall and strong, get your back in a strong position when the stroke starts.
Forget Tt for a while, row to make every stroke a good stroke, keep the low, max 24. Do this for a while and your stroke will massively get better and stronger.

[jamesg]

Scullers in training use a different technique:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20rSoTo8fQA

Don't be kidded by the low rating; he's working very hard and would probably keep going for an hour or so.


Most of your technical problems derive from high drag, which forces you into high ratings and short hard strokes with low work content. A crash course in rowing would require that you set the damper low, even below drag 100, and then pull say 150W at rate 20. Up to you to find out how it's done. When you can, rate 40 and 300W will be easy, giving you a 7 minute 2k if you have the endurance.

The recovery sequence is a good place to start: hands away, then swing forward, then lift the knees. This puts you into a strong catch position for the long fast pull that's essential against low drag.

The machines whether C, D or E all have the same engineering.

[Citroen]

Topic split out of "Indoor Rowers" and moved into "Training".

[lindsayh]

well done to post that - it will help you a lot as you will be able to correct technical problems quickly before getting in to too many bad habits.
Henry and James are right of course - the problems are largely the result of the drag setting so high.
Going way too far forward is not only inefficient but shin soreness is very likely - knees should not be in front of feet and shins no more than vertical.
You definitely need to engage back and arms in a good sequence that is very hard to achieve when you are moving so fast and need to learn to make each stroke much stronger.
Your wrists are not held firmly either and break as the handle gets close to the body. Need to rock back a bit as Henry as said and touch the handle to the chest with wrists firm and unbroken. At the moment the stroke is short because it is so fast and you are trying to get away before you have completed the stroke. Try to aim a bit higher just below nipple level and slower and more deliberate/stronger.

[Galeere]

That's not to say I didn't understand nor foolishly think the basic principles of don't apply to me that might be helpful. I get exactly where you're coming from on your beefy friend who rows like crazy. It sounds like me, just on another level, where he has the muscle to reach into those speedy times but for me I simply don't have the incremental arm strength to see those kind of numbers even for a few moments. So I make it up with higher stroke rate to get to the way I'm currently doing. Based on your and Lindsay's comments, today when I rowed I checked both of the ergs, identical model E' next to each other, that I always use to row. I have a huge preference for one of them which I always have thought allows me to get better times. On the days I'm stuck with the one I don't like, my 500m time is 1 to 1.5 seconds worse and my lungs are out of it, and there is no reserve energy in my arms. So today I checked the "Drag factor". Ha! (Lindsay!) The machine I prefer has the factor of 191, The other identical one, age, model everything, is only 157. Both pushed up beyond the 10 as high as the adjustment goes. So that could indicate either my technique is terrible, or that something else is going on. Since you specified I would need a good technique I can't just say, look what happens, but I can say that I lose 40-50 meters in 5K using the 157 factor, and my stroke rate is about half to one stroke higher/min.

In my reply to Bob I discussed how two side by side model E's the same age and use and maintenance, on maximum, have 191 and 157 damper factors which I promptly measured after reading both of your recommendations today rowing. Here's the thing. I don't have the strength in my arms and believe the routine I've settled into it's more the leg strength, since that is what I'm using to get the high s/m's where most of the flywheel gets accelerated. My understanding is I make up the lower power with frequency (stroke rate)for my level of experience and muscular endowment for what it lacks. The reason I've become so partial to training regularly at the damper factor of 191 is because it is naturally developing my arms which you guys would think are puny. It seems to be a sort of weight training on the fly - yes they get a heck of a workout that might be my alternate of weight training. So I'm getting the aerobic workout plus real intense arm work which I need somehow, if I expect to improve, and it helps my self image since I've always wanted to have more defined and larger arms and that is one of my rowing goals. I wonder if I've just adapted to a different type of workout, and whether mine might work well for me, but not be optimal for rowing improvement. We have really different weight and muscle distributions. Technique, no matter what, needs to be improved if I can figure out how, but it seems that the slower carefully executed training would mean a drop in my results. I am always on my time trial rhythm. The whole time is like a three cylinder car going 120 kph for me. But I recover breath and calm speaking voice now in 10-15 seconds when I stop after a brief after row down after the timer finishes. If the technique developing training sessions means stressing my arms less, when it now sounds like I have to lower my energy output for training, but that's at odds with building my arms this way ... I wonder if what I'm doing is just something different and I can't have my cake and eat it too, and just need to state my goals clearly and make a more varied workout program. Because I take the point well, I'd be foolish to go through life re-enforcing poor technique. Your 71 year old friend is an inspiration. He is so darned lucky to train with you!!! I wish I could be there once just to see. Do you have any videos up?

Your observations on the drag factor seem pretty peculiar to me, especially considering that you are a small guy. I am much bigger (190 pounds @ 6 foot) and I started years ago with high drag factors as well but observed retrospectively that I totally missed the concept of the importance of a good stroke and especially the leg part in the stroke (that is me, for you it´s not the legs but arms and back); like you I saw the machine as a mean for training muscles. But there are far better ways to do that. Erging is a cardio-workout, muscles are needed but not specifically trained as by doing weights. When I restarted erging at the beginning of this year I still used drag factors of 150 or 160 even for long range. I improved cardio, I improved technique even with suboptimal drag factor settings and I especially learned to get the legs into play (which was in part a result of better cardio - the leg muscles use a lot of air/blood and need corresponding work from your cardio system). On optimizing the stroke and optimizing/doing all parts of the drive (legs, arms, back) I learned that lower drag factors (than 160) lead to better results, especially on long range work-outs/time-trials. I learned that not only by experementing but by a nice vid explaining the concept as well as how a stroke should look like as a force curve on the screen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiQ0Mqlk_Lo . Currently I go @ drag factors of 105-110 for long range work (I might bump it back to 120-130 once my injury is totally healed but not more than that). For short sprints it is a Little different; there higher factors can be recommended as they often lead to better results. But everybody is different and you should find your personal optimum, taking also into consideration that higher drag factors put more strain on the muscles (increasing the risk of injury) as you have to pull against a slower wheel. Cheers.

[Galeere]

Saw your vid and agree with Henry. You miss the back work and also seem to miss the arm part of the stroke on 1/3 of the strokes. Look at some vids (for example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ai64EEexI0I= and try to duplicate the technique using lower drag and lower rating. Good news is that you will have lots of room for improvement when you get your technique straightened out.

[ergo sum]

About my rowing video for critical comment,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20rSoTo8fQA

Here I go, not said anything, its not often 100% appreciated what I say.

I feel really fortunate that Bob suggested I make a video which turned out I could do. I am especially pleased Henry, James, Lindsay and Hardy and anyone else kind enough to join in is commenting on my technique. I feel indebted to all of you for being so generous with your time to help me row better. It has become a passion and every word of advice I get I am organizing very enthusiastically on a separate piece of paper to try to apply and understand what I need to do to improve. It is like stopping to get directions inside Rome at the moment where there is no way to remember everything on the first try. I started 5-6 months and have done about 5K daily since then so a lot of in-grain habits probably, the worst of which is the addiction to see my best numbers every single time I row.

Each of you brings fantastic advice which I realized the moment I started reading Henry's first reply so until I can actually try to put this in practice I won't waste bandwidth except to clarify a few things:

After the stroke you back should forward to roughly 11 o'clock, the gap between your legs and chest should be very small. You have picked up this habit by using that bizarre drag. You can,t get that round using a normal stroke.

11 o'clock means 30 degrees toward the fan from a vertical sitting position, right?

You can,t get that round

Are you refering to the crescent "hunchback" like curve of my back when you observe the 'round' ?

Row strapless to learn the finish the stroke and slow the stroke

I can't wait to get good enough to train some girls with this advice!!! (joke) The last 5 -10 min the foot straps usually are so loose that I am effectively strapless anyway, but I still put a lot of force into the foot base, does that sound correct?

Forget Tt for a while,

Does this mean I cannot rely on the rowing machine to exert myself at 100% my capacity like a crazy man the whole time, until the future time I get better which likely will take weeks, or is there something I can add to the training routine to get the incredibly vigorous output I have become psychologically addicted to doing daily and accomplish the two things?

Scullers in training use a different technique: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20rSoTo8fQA Don't be kidded by the low rating;

I noticed in that sculling video that the knees often open at what I understand to be the 'catch', the point when the knees are most forward (and near vertical to feet when correct). How much opening of the knees is reasonable with good form?

Your wrists are not held firmly either and break as the handle gets close to the body. Need to rock back a bit as Henry

Sorry if I have no on water exp. to say which way I'm traveling yet! "To rock back" means back towards the fan, correct?

higher drag factors put more strain on the muscles (increasing the risk of injury)

Is what I do in the video likely to result in injury, or is the comment more general. I didn't feel it was an issue, but profess ignorance and just want to understand. Do you think not rocking my back toward the fan enough is what I've conditioned myself to do to avoid injury and that at higher rates with good form injury would be more likely as the back and arms assume more load?

On optimizing the stroke and optimizing/doing all parts of the drive (legs, arms, back) I learned that lower drag factors (than 160) lead to better results,

Generally, I am wondering. My situation so far has made my respiration the limit to my best times, with all the faults the form clearly has. Looking at my build, and considering I have exceptionally good oxygen intake for at least 20 minutes which rowing has really made the difference, if I get good form will respiration likely be the limit of time or will fatigued muscles be the limit? At the moment my limit is clearly respiration.

Thanks again for priceless help!

[hjs]

About my rowing video for critical comment,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20rSoTo8fQA

After the stroke you back should forward to roughly 11 o'clock, the gap between your legs and chest should be very small. You have picked up this habit by using that bizarre drag. You can,t get that round using a normal stroke.

11 o'clock means 30 degrees toward the fan from a vertical sitting position, right?

You can,t get that round

Are you refering to the crescent "hunchback" like curve of my back when you observe the 'round' ?

Row strapless to learn the finish the stroke and slow the stroke

I can't wait to get good enough to train some girls with this advice!!! (joke) The last 5 -10 min the foot straps usually are so loose that I am effectively strapless anyway, but I still put a lot of force into the foot base, does that sound correct?

Forget Tt for a while,

Does this mean I cannot rely on the rowing machine to exert myself at 100% my capacity like a crazy man the whole time, until the future time I get better which likely will take weeks, or is there something I can add to the training routine to get the incredibly vigorous output I have become psychologically addicted to doing daily and accomplish the two things?

Code: Select all

Scullers in training use a different technique:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20rSoTo8fQA  Don't be kidded by the low rating;

I noticed in that sculling video that the knees often open at what I understand to be the 'catch', the point when the knees are most forward (and near vertical to feet when correct). How much opening of the knees is reasonable with good form?


Thanks again for priceless help!

You are welcome. I try to give a better idea.

15 degrees is enough, bend forwards seen from vertical. Try to get you hips moving, you shoulders should be a lot mote foward with a more or less straught back. Depending on whats comfortable for you.

You don,t get the drag round, its way to heavy, its very lumpy and you can,t finish your stroke.

Yes you no doubt pull the drag straps loose, that should not happen, rowing stapless will make you finish the stroke. With your current stroke strapless will be impossible. But try it for a while.

Training is not racing, for a while stop doing that, learn a better stroke first. After that you can race a few, 1 2 times per week. For the rest row at a good but certainly not max pace. Racing every session will not work in the longer run.

The hunchback is a poor position, you are sitting on the higher part of your glutes. Sit up and sit on the lower part and push your lower up forward. This is much stronger.

Knees, on the erg not needed to split does up. Keep them closed, but comfortable for you.

In short really change your stroke, it will help you a good deal, have a bit op patience though. You need to change a good bit.

Good luck?

[jackarabit]

Elvis was right. A little less conversation, a little more C2 Girl!

------->>>>>>> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zQ82RYIFLN8