Full slide or not?

[mg6682]

I'm beginning to think that a full slide on an erg is not the best way to a fast time, especially for taller and heavier rowers, even more so for shorter distances. I've watched a ton of 2k (lightweights too) and below fast times and almost none of them are full slide rows, even into the middle 1000. In my case, with a 28 s/m avg 2k, shortening the slide a bit should help with that, as long as the fitness can handle it. What do you all think?

[jackarabit]

Not. The vids don't lie. Lots of competitors don't compress legs beyond 90° included angle between shin and thigh at the catch. Some of the younger ones maintain a pronounced fwd lean and layback thereby retaining stroke length. Older guys appear to lose flexibility in the hamstring-glute-back connection and probably abdominal strength which must make rocking the torso thru extreme ranges of motion and checking the motion at catch and recovery a young man's game. Jack

[hjs]

I'm beginning to think that a full slide on an erg is not the best way to a fast time, especially for taller and heavier rowers, even more so for shorter distances. I've watched a ton of 2k (lightweights too) and below fast times and almost none of them are full slide rows, even into the middle 1000. In my case, with a 28 s/m avg 2k, shortening the slide a bit should help with that, as long as the fitness can handle it. What do you all think?

On shorter stuff, 500 and below yes, above that no, at rate 28 its pretty easy to have a full stroke.
On a 500 with rates in the 40, usena sprintstroke, on 100 meters with 60 and above even shorter.

[Cyclingman1]

I'm beginning to think that a full slide on an erg is not the best way to a fast time, especially for taller and heavier rowers, even more so for shorter distances. ... In my case, with a 28 s/m avg 2k, shortening the slide a bit should help with that

I think you are really asking how to increase SPM, not necessarily decreasing full slide. The slide length is solely determined by the action of the legs and the legs are the strongest part of the stroke. So we really do not want to mess with legs. The torso and arms are less powerful than legs with arms being the least. To save time on a stroke, it makes sense to cut down on the weakest part of the stroke, that is, the arms. I would say getting the arms moving forward pretty much when the torso stops moving backwards is the place to save time and increase the SPM without losing too much power. It is a tradeoff: faster SPM and some loss of power if arm movement is lessened. You can easily experiment with this. I would do this at near race pace. I do it all the time. Change something in the stroke to increase SPM and see if pace lowers accordingly. Like I say, it is a tradeoff. What looks good on paper or in someone else's video may not work for you. Send money when your 2K time decreases. JDG.

[hjs]

I'm beginning to think that a full slide on an erg is not the best way to a fast time, especially for taller and heavier rowers, even more so for shorter distances. ... In my case, with a 28 s/m avg 2k, shortening the slide a bit should help with that

I think you are really asking how to increase SPM, not necessarily decreasing full slide. The slide length is solely determined by the action of the legs and the legs are the strongest part of the stroke. So we really do not want to mess with legs. The torso and arms are less powerful than legs with arms being the least. To save time on a stroke, it makes sense to cut down on the weakest part of the stroke, that is, the arms. I would say getting the arms moving forward pretty much when the torso stops moving backwards is the place to save time and increase the SPM without losing too much power. It is a tradeoff: faster SPM and some loss of power if arm movement is lessened. You can easily experiment with this. I would do this at near race pace. I do it all the time. Change something in the stroke to increase SPM and see if pace lowers accordingly. Like I say, it is a tradeoff. What looks good on paper or in someone else's video may not work for you. Send money when your 2K time decreases. JDG.

Cut back on nothing, use a full stroke. Jim only strokes very soft, he has his reasons, but in general having a strong stroke is only positive.

[mg6682]

I recently met up with a former us national team member and coach at OSU for a few hours of rowing and chatting. We talked about technique, both on the water and on the erg. He even showed me a technique that he would sometimes employ at the catch to help engage the flywheel a bit better (sort of a wrist flick). He suggested I not sweat the minutiae of the erg as all it is, really, is a conditioning tool for rowers and to focus more on my conditioning. I'm in my second week of the interactive program and am rowing for much longer periods than I'm used to (or like). One big flaw in my technique, over reaching and going past vertical, is now starting to irritate my knees a bit with the longer sessions. I've set my foot plate up a notch to see if that helps. It really seems to me that on an erg, a persons power and conditioning play a much bigger factor than technique (glaring errors aside). That's how a guy like this (really good lightweight rower with not the greatest technique - bent arms, not full slide) does so well:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjH3inybxSQ

A few of the other rowers in this video are not at full slide either. Very pronounced out of the gate, then gets a little longer in the middle. Henrik is quite a machine, isn't he? Impressive breathing!

[DanielJ]

Henrik takes quite a while to settle down. His technique is still evolving well beyond a minute into his 2k.

Martin Sinkovic is another great (extremely) erger who engages his arms a little bit at the very beginning of the drive, and then completes the arm work at "conventional" point.

To add another example, Eric Murray also shortens up a tiny bit in his 2k, compared with his other erg work.


I feel a bit reluctant to say anything and have it be construed as "advice" because I'm so damn lame compared to a lot of you guys, but I can say at least for me that I certainly found a lot more strength in my drive when I shortened my stroke a bit at the catch end. My shins used to go beyond vertical, and it annoyed me for a while, because it was just where my catch naturally "fell". I would watch it happen in the mirror and it felt natural but I knew it was wrong because the beginning of the drive was inefficient. After a while of forcing it, my shins are now just going to vertical and it feels much better now that I've just gotten used to it. Not only is my drive snappier and stronger at the beginning, but I can almost completely flatten my feet to the plates, with my heels only rolling up a tiny bit. It obviously makes it that bit easier to rate up, too, which will be massively important when I develop the fitness to be able to go 35, 36, 37+ etc spm for long periods.

I'm not sure about specifically for 2k, whether that's at or beyond the point where I personally would start to shorten my stroke a bit. I guess that's for each individual to decide for himself, whether it suits him physiologically. I suppose it would depend on his fitness, the length of his legs...

[jackarabit]

I bet Paderewski didn't engage in the old drop-connect-roll to forehead height when the tempo went prestissimo. Piano, erg--all same same. Jack

[mg6682]

Henrik takes quite a while to settle down. His technique is still evolving well beyond a minute into his 2k.

Martin Sinkovic is another great (extremely) erger who engages his arms a little bit at the very beginning of the drive, and then completes the arm work at "conventional" point.

To add another example, Eric Murray also shortens up a tiny bit in his 2k, compared with his other erg work.


I feel a bit reluctant to say anything and have it be construed as "advice" because I'm so damn lame compared to a lot of you guys, but I can say at least for me that I certainly found a lot more strength in my drive when I shortened my stroke a bit at the catch end. My shins used to go beyond vertical, and it annoyed me for a while, because it was just where my catch naturally "fell". I would watch it happen in the mirror and it felt natural but I knew it was wrong because the beginning of the drive was inefficient. After a while of forcing it, my shins are now just going to vertical and it feels much better now that I've just gotten used to it. Not only is my drive snappier and stronger at the beginning, but I can almost completely flatten my feet to the plates, with my heels only rolling up a tiny bit. It obviously makes it that bit easier to rate up, too, which will be massively important when I develop the fitness to be able to go 35, 36, 37+ etc spm for long periods.

I'm not sure about specifically for 2k, whether that's at or beyond the point where I personally would start to shorten my stroke a bit. I guess that's for each individual to decide for himself, whether it suits him physiologically. I suppose it would depend on his fitness, the length of his legs...

I'm having the same experience - raising my feet one notch has helped.

[hjs]

I recently met up with a former us national team member and coach at OSU for a few hours of rowing and chatting. We talked about technique, both on the water and on the erg. He even showed me a technique that he would sometimes employ at the catch to help engage the flywheel a bit better (sort of a wrist flick). He suggested I not sweat the minutiae of the erg as all it is, really, is a conditioning tool for rowers and to focus more on my conditioning. I'm in my second week of the interactive program and am rowing for much longer periods than I'm used to (or like). One big flaw in my technique, over reaching and going past vertical, is now starting to irritate my knees a bit with the longer sessions. I've set my foot plate up a notch to see if that helps. It really seems to me that on an erg, a persons power and conditioning play a much bigger factor than technique (glaring errors aside). That's how a guy like this (really good lightweight rower with not the greatest technique - bent arms, not full slide) does so well:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjH3inybxSQ

A few of the other rowers in this video are not at full slide either. Very pronounced out of the gate, then gets a little longer in the middle. Henrik is quite a machine, isn't he? Impressive breathing!

Bit difficult to compare with him, he is so fit and talented, look how relative fresh he still is at the finish. Superathlete, on the erg almost unbeatable, otw less so though...
Plus this is his 2races technique, in training he rows not this way.
Erging is indeed no rocket science, being very very fit snd strong enough is 90% plus of the result.

People who go beyond vertical at the catch, don,t rock over enough with the back, they tend to keep the back pretty straight, indeed of rocking back and forth enough.

[jackarabit]

Did someone teach Fausto Coppi how to pedal? Of course. When he started winning, did someone continue to say Fausto, you embecile, you're doing it all wrong? Most likely. Five Giro wins later, it's Fausto, pedal any way you want! Pedal with one foot if you wish.

We can argue all day about sequential vs. concurrent employment of the legs, back, arms, what is necessary to keep a scull moving efficiently, and what's special about a big engine vs. the average pufferbelly. Erg racing encourages a very pragmatic view of the value of what moves the numbers on the PM. The arc of experimentation with regard to erging mechanics is not much different whether you're learning at 8 or 80. Good old Golden Rule days is the beginning of a journey, not the end.

https://www.rowperfect.co.uk/what-of-th ... k-or-arms/ is an interesting take on relative contributions of legs, back and arms. Contradicts the received wisdom and goes some distance to explaining why Stephansen can short stroke with legs, hunt for optimal amplitude of back movement relative to cadence in the first 500m, and mantis his hands to his armpits most of the way in apparent contradiction of all that is true and beautiful. Jack

[hjs]

Did someone teach Fausto Coppi how to pedal? Of course. When he started winning, did someone continue to say Fausto, you embecile, you're doing it all wrong? Most likely. Five Giro wins later, it's Fausto, pedal any way you want! Pedal with one foot if you wish.

We can argue all day about sequential vs. concurrent employment of the legs, back, arms, what is necessary to keep a scull moving efficiently, and what's special about a big engine vs. the average pufferbelly. Erg racing encourages a very pragmatic view of the value of what moves the numbers on the PM. The arc of experimentation with regard to erging mechanics is not much different whether you're learning at 8 or 80. Good old Golden Rule days is the beginning of a journey, not the end.

https://www.rowperfect.co.uk/what-of-th ... k-or-arms/ is an interesting take on relative contributions of legs, back and arms. Contradicts the received wisdom and goes some distance to explaining why Stephansen can short stroke with legs, hunt for optimal amplitude of back movement relative to cadence in the first 500m, and mantis his hands to his armpits most of the way in apparent contradiction of all that is true and beautiful. Jack

The big flaw is, you can,t isolate the muscle. The handle is connected with the hands to the feet.
Legs only rowing is impossible, you can,t transfer the power in the chain, you end upmwith a lot of energy left which hits the straps and your back, the same goes for back only.
Only the arms can put the energy in the chain.

Try for yourself, but strapless, you will find that both legs and back only is simply not possible, no a nice try this, but useless Jack.

[jackarabit]

I agree with your appraisal of the article linked, Henry. Isolation of the movements removes that peculiarly efficient whippersnapper motion which, over the course of aeons, has made baseball pitchers from worms. As for "useless Jack," I hoped no one but my wife would notice.

[hjs]

I agree with your appraisal of the article linked, Henry. Isolation of the movements removes that peculiarly efficient whippersnapper motion which, over the course of aeons, has made baseball pitchers from worms. As for "useless Jack," I hoped no one but my wife would notice.

I should have looked before sending..

This is useless Jack, sorry.... In the end though we are just dust in the wind though

[Trev]

Tall woman able to touch the frame where the chain goes.

How long must the arms be to make the handle touch the machine?