Which plan do you think

[Gowyn]

So at a bit of an impasse here and just wondering if anyone can offer any advice.

So I bought the C2 rower a year and a half ago, ran up about 1800000m, dropped 20lbs, increased VO2 max and feel better.

Ideally I would like to drop an additional 25lbs but not imperative. Right now 22% body fat, 5'10", 48 yo male. The weight loss side of this I'm going to address with my diet.

Just bought the C2 Skierg which I do like, different cardio workout which movement wise I would say does compliment the rower.

So as it stands right now I usually do something everyday for about 5-6 hours a week of exercise. I will row usually four days a week and right now that is usually a 30min UT1 row followed by the short C2 workout of the day on the Skierg. The problem I have is, even though I have seen an improvement in rowing times I'm not impressed. Recent 2000m was 8:31 and a 10000m took 46min. Now when I started rowing UT2 range was usually 2:45 pace, now it's easily 2:15 so it's an improvement.

I did notice though when I did the 10k (on Rowpro with others online) that the watts I was making (145w average) was way off the mark. I've adjusted my DF and am going to work on my technique also.

Anyway, I'm going to change up the plan and am trying to decide between the ISS Fast-Track Training Programme, the ISS 2000m programme or perhaps the beginner Pete Plan. Just wondering what folks thoughts would be and how best I would work both the skierg and rower into a plan?

thanks all

[gregsmith01748]

I think the iss 2k plan or the pete plan for beginners would both be good. You might like doing the pete plan because you redo similar workouts on about a 3 week cadence so you can push for improvement. It a bit harder to judge on the interactive plan.

As for mixing in the ski erg, I really don't know, but I suspect adding a few minutes onto your erg sessions at the end would be a reasonable way to go.

[rhr]

Hi Gowyn,

You seem to have a good handle on your objectives and plans which is imperative when it comes to self driven training. Getting up off the couch and into the garage to slave away takes some doing - so well done.

The skierg is an excellent piece of equipment and works some key muscle groups, in particular your core. If you would like to boost your metabolism a bit and get more weight off I strongly suggest you add a weights routine into your plans. Muscle atrophication is the major cause of slowing metabolisms in people over 40. Doesn't hurt your rowing either plus you are likely to see a drop in bf to below 20%, a key milestone. A 95lb power clean is meant to be a very close proxy to a rowing stroke.

Now we get to the tougher part - your times. Assuming you're a healthy individual with no complications then your 1.8MM on the erg should be producing better outcomes. In fairness someone has to be the first percentile and someone the 100th but doing 5-6 hours a week should put you in the top half of your age group. My guess is technique is the problem - fix it asap. Watch videos and post one of yourself on here.

Re skierg and rower workouts - check gymjones out - he's the guy who trained up the actors for the "300" movie.
Examples - 500m skierg / 500m rower / 400m SE / 400m C2.......100m/100m for time (no rests so anaerobic)
For aerobic improvement I do 10 mins C2 / 2 min rest / 2k skierg / 2 min rest on x 4 so a total of about 18-20km in 1hr28
For the rest you need to row to get faster - I agree with Greg on the PP for beginners
You could use the skierg as part of a warm up for rowing - I find it helpful.

[jamesg]

I've adjusted my DF and am going to work on my technique also.

Your numbers suggest training at about 155-160 W at rate 20-22, with drag around 120, and plenty of it: work like this will soon get you to a 225W 2k (7:40) with little else.

The first half of an Interactive will give you more detailed numbers, and the test will then show what has happened. The first step is technique however: if the stroke is not a good one, you produce little work, go slow and do not train. HR alone does not shift boats: it's the work in each stroke that does this.

If you feel the work in the Interactive is too soft, drop the rating but hold the power output constant.

[Cyclingman1]

From an anti-plan person, I think the Interactive programs are okay/doable. I think the Wolverine Plan is gobble-d-gook. Pete Plan is a little better.

8:31 2K for early middle aged male with nearly 2M meters - Something ain't right. It is probably a combination of fitness, technique, and overall know-how. Being a lifetime competitive athlete, I undoubtedly underestimate the difficulty of a non-athlete to really understand how to push the physical window. Non-athletes need coaches way more than do athletes. With proper technique, effort, and feedback over the last year you would now be at a minimum of 7:30 or less. But it is never too late. There are no-doubt technique issues, but I totally suspect that your pain (not literally) threshold needs to be ramped up. A person gets fitter by overload - a basic fitness principle. There has to be some pushing in some of your workouts. A little secret is that great endurance athletes learn to almost love the pain. That is one reason they are great. And we can learn from that.

[hjs]

From an anti-plan person, I think the Interactive programs are okay/doable. I think the Wolverine Plan is gobble-d-gook. Pete Plan is a little better.

.

Haha. Wolverine is only suited for very dedicated, lots training people. In itself a very good plan, but you have to be very deciplined. In have never seen someone really doing the plan. Only some bits and pieces are used and seldom the whole 4 segments. In this case useless.

You don,t need a plan, you need a good at your technique and you need base fitness. Talent is something you can,t argue with but at the moment you seem to slow. Beginners first need to gain power and a sense on intensency. Doing long slow stuff is fine but won,t make you fast. You need short, high paced (relative) work to learn to use all your energy systems.
Stuff like 10 1/1 mi, row 1 min. Fast, rest a minute. Aim for even pacing and high rate, with full strokes. Once a week at first.

[Gowyn]

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

These posts have been great.

I've figured out what my problem is. Yes I'm no athlete, sedentary most of my life and lazy, I admit it. So when I row I honestly don't put much into it...it's true. I'll plod along for 30 minutes, burn 350cals and think "well that was good!"

Cyclingman1 thanks, I don't like pain...haha. I do have to admit though, the Skierg is more "painful" than the rower.

So looking back over my logs the Skierg has been in use for about two months now, that's good.
Had an arm injury back in May which prevented me from rowing most of the summer so only really been back on it for about three months.
Most of my rowing sessions have been a mild training load.
My DF was set too low, around 100.
My SPM were too high, 26 SPM.
My endurance is low, need to work on this.

What's good is: I've dropped 20lbs in 18 months but have plateaued around 202Lbs, not too worried about this, this is a diet and metabolism issue.
VO2 Max has increased from 36 in June to 48 now, based on my Polar V800 (I take this with a grain of salt but it's a base.)
I'm at the point now that if I don't do some sort of exercise I get cranky, so I have to do something everyday!

So the plan:

Well today I'm going to do the 2k time trial to give me a baseline.
I will start the ISS 2k programme.
I will integrate some weight training into my weekly routine. Rowing, Skierg, fencing, walking and now weights.
I already plan to adjust my diet, going to give the Paleo a go for 30 days.
I'm going to concentrate on the 155-160 W at rate 20-22 (thank you jamesg)
DF has been adjusted to 125
I'm going to really concentrate on the technique, I thought I had this down but the low power output tells otherwise.

Thanks again everyone, I will update and please feel free to offer any other advise.

G

[Cyclingman1]

Remember, you cannot get fit all at once. In other words, do not kill yourself, get hurt, etc. You did not get to where you are overnight and you will not get to fitness nirvana overnight. But I guarantee that you will not get what you do not put into it. Good luck.

[Bob S.]

I'm going to really concentrate on the technique, I thought I had this down but the low power output tells otherwise.

That is good, but it is hard to spot technique flaws as you are doing the exercise. Record a full length video from the side and check out the various technique items - sequences, angles, bumshooting, etc. You can spot these yourself to some extent. For fine tuning, you can post it on the net with a link here so that you can get a critique.

Bob S.

[Gowyn]

Right I did the 2K again. Slightly better results.

Time: 8:20.8, Avg Pace: 2:05.2, Avg. DPS: 11.1, (range: 9.9-12.8) avg. Watts: 178.3 (range 114.8-245.8), avg SPM: 21, avg HR:161.

Came out fast then tried to pace myself better, would max out HR around 164 then stop for a few seconds to catch my breath. Kept SPM down.


I have Rowpro which I use daily. It created the following plan, thoughts? RHR=53, MHR=182

2014-12-21hx.jpg (120.97 KiB) Viewed 7701 times

[hjs]

A 2k is never done at rate 21, you really need to learn to rate up, a 2k needs rate 30 at least. This is one of reasons of you being not so fast.

Erging if done hard is really tough, given the comments you make you are just erging a bit, nothing wrong with it, but far from the best you can do. If you want to and learn a bit about you body you can be a lot faster.

[jamesg]

Watts: 178.3 (range 114.8-245.8), avg SPM: 21

Looks like you were testing a lot of things, not just your 2k time. The 178/21 ratio says you're working hard each stroke, and rest HR 53 suggests you already are quite fit.

So I think mileage at rate 20-22, 150-160W should suit you for now, adjusting in time according to HR. Priority goes to keeping the strokes good and finishing the pieces: no hurry, we can learn to row and get fitter only at a certain rate.

[DanielJ]

Wolverine is only suited for very dedicated, lots training people. In itself a very good plan, but you have to be very deciplined. In have never seen someone really doing the plan.

I'm giving it a go when my hand is mended. Now I've actually read the PDF over properly, understood it etc. I feel like it suits me. Let's see.

Right I did the 2K again. Slightly better results.

Time: 8:20.8, Avg Pace: 2:05.2, Avg. DPS: 11.1, (range: 9.9-12.8) avg. Watts: 178.3 (range 114.8-245.8), avg SPM: 21, avg HR:161.

Came out fast then tried to pace myself better, would max out HR around 164 then stop for a few seconds to catch my breath. Kept SPM down.

Sorry to be a bit blunt but such a wide variance in the numbers seems to suggest an inconsistent or even ragged technique, to me; I'd be surprised at anyone with a RHR of 53 having to stop for breath doing a 2k @ 21 SPM @ 2:05.2/500 unless there's something wrong. (Sorry if I'm reading you wrong but I'm getting the impression that these 2k efforts were maximal or near-maximal attempts, as you said time trial. (?))

Check this for technique and a great excuse to listen to Oxygene Part 4: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pf84O5cTWY4 (That's about 18 SPM, but note his quads are still doing the work, the back is rigid and only opens up when he's halfway down the rail, etc.), and this one @ about 21/22 SPM: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20rSoTo8fQA.

I'm on about 1.8 million metres this year too, with a dreadful starting point, but the best thing for me has been actually paying real attention to the guys on here with regard to technique, and then applying it. Sound technique makes the low-SPM work easy instead of awkward, and rowing becomes second nature.

But... As has been said, when it comes to racing a 2k, you definitely have to be rating much faster. IMO, getting into the 30s SPM for a 2k requires at least a decent level of fitness (I'm maybe just about there), but definitely pushing into the higher 20s and beyond will help.

As for DF - I think I read somewhere that Rob Waddell did his 2k @ a DF of 99, and he managed a decent time. I don't think the DF has to be increased much if at all for a 2k.

[hjs]

Also a good way to get to lightweight, with your current 78 kg, getting to 75 on a high volume, most l4 and l3 should be no problem.

[jackarabit]

The Pete Plan (the one that repeats workouts in three week cycles) is six days on one off and averages roughly 44,500m per week at minimum distance for the LSD sessions. Lot of volume cf. to your RP generated plan. I loved doing it but six weeks chewed me up and sent me back to the Pete Beginner Plan which is 3 workouts a week and two optional. First of year I plan on adding weight and resistance training days both for strength and muscle balance. My yardage is 1.5 million meters in the past 8 months. Too much of that was directionless running up meters for C2 challenges. My sense of the thing is that we all need direction and a goal and less time simply messing about on the erg. Jack