Very first C2 row 10,000m

[Marc1t]

My new C2 D arrived today jumped on it for my very first row 10000m did 43:57:4 drag setting 3-4 just wondered if this is ok for a very first attempt? Honest opinions please, not looking for ego boosting comments! I know its not superfast, my technique was all over the place my stroke rate was about 30 or higher most of the time, is this too high? I m a 50 year old 70kg male. room for improvement?

[Bob S.]

My new C2 D arrived today jumped on it for my very first row 10000m did 43:57:4 drag setting 3-4 just wondered if this is ok for a very first attempt? Honest opinions please, not looking for ego boosting comments! I know its not superfast, my technique was all over the place my stroke rate was about 30 or higher most of the time, is this too high? I m a 50 year old 70kg male. room for improvement?

At this point, forget about speed and distance. Work on technique and they will take care of themselves. There are a number of videos available that show this. One excellent one is this:

The Thames Rowing Club technique video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqVmMd7FdAA

One key feature is the proper sequence. Start the drive with the legs, begin the back swing, and finish with the arms after the legs are straight. On the recovery the sequence is reversed. Get your hands away and past your knees before raising your knees. Again, swinging you torso forward bridges your arm and leg movements.

Another feature is the ratio of times for drive and recovery. The drive should be quick and hard, with emphasis on the leg work. The recovery should be slow, relaxed, and easy. The drive to recovery is in the range of 1/6 on up to 1/1. A more typical stroke rate for long training pieces like 10km would be 20spm. Drive times are in the range 0.5-0.9s, averaging 0.7s. At 20spm, or 3 second per stroke, that would mean 0.7s for the drive and 2.3s for the recovery, or a drive to recovery ratio of roughly 1/4. Note that the most comfortable stroke rate depends on your body dimensions and on the type of piece you are doing. Those who are short and/or have short limbs will use higher rates to compensate for shorter drives. The more intense pieces - sprints, intervals, races, and time trials are done at higher rates than long distance training sessions. Low rates are better if you are concentrating on improving technique.

Also, there is no such thing as drag setting. The damper settings run from zero to ten and the damper setting determines the drag factor which must be read from the monitor (Main Menu - Other Options - Display Drag Factor). DFs on a new (i.e. clean) machine at sea level at normal temperature and atmospheric pressure will range from around 90 to 210. A damper setting of 3-4 would produce a DF of around 110-140, which is the DF range that most regular ergers use, so you are on the right track.

Bob S.

[Marc1t]

Thank Bob Ill check my drag factor next time so obviously my stroke rate is too high? & my drive/recovery ratio needs addressing & I should be using my legs with more pull? Strangely, I'm a very competent racing cyclist but after my workout my legs hurt more than my arms I put it down to the fact that in cycling the legs are not fully extended during the peddling stroke but obviously rowing does, so my hamstrings are restricting me, lots of work to do?

[gregsmith01748]

For first row, I think that's terrific. In the rankings, it is a little below the 50th percentile. But I bet with the form tips you'll improve quickly from this starting point.

How tall are you? If you are carrying more than 10 pounds of extra weight, you might want to row as a lightweight. (65kg)

[jvincent]

My new C2 D arrived today jumped on it for my very first row 10000m did 43:57:4 drag setting 3-4 just wondered if this is ok for a very first attempt? Honest opinions please, not looking for ego boosting comments! I know its not superfast, my technique was all over the place my stroke rate was about 30 or higher most of the time, is this too high? I m a 50 year old 70kg male. room for improvement?

For a first attempt, yes, that is quite good. You mention in your later post that you are a racing cyclist, so you must be in pretty good shape.

30spm is kind of high for that time/distance. I am usually around 22spm for that distance/time.

As the others have pointed out, once your form improves you should get much better times especially since you appear to be in decent shape already.

[Bob S.]

For first row, I think that's terrific. In the rankings, it is a little below the 50th percentile. But I bet with the form tips you'll improve quickly from this starting point.

How tall are you? If you are carrying more than 10 pounds of extra weight, you might want to row as a lightweight. (65kg)

??? At 70kg he is already 5 kg under the 75kg (165#) limit. Since he has been a competitive cyclist it is not likely that he has any extra weight to lose.

Bob S.

[Marc1t]

Firstly thanks for your posts you have given mwe some good pointers, Im gonna be working in my technique & try & concentrate on lowering my stroke rate while maintaining speed, i think I can improve on this point I have been a lifelong athlete in competitive cycling so im in not bad shape but not at my fittest yet for this season its still early days. As for my weight I doubt if i could lose much more & I dont think its varied much since my teens. as for my hight Im 5' 10

[hjs]

Firstly thanks for your posts you have given mwe some good pointers, Im gonna be working in my technique & try & concentrate on lowering my stroke rate while maintaining speed, i think I can improve on this point I have been a lifelong athlete in competitive cycling so im in not bad shape but not at my fittest yet for this season its still early days. As for my weight I doubt if i could lose much more & I dont think its varied much since my teens. as for my hight Im 5' 10

Everyboy always talks about lowering strokerate, but in itself there is nothing wrong with a high rate. Its softer on the body and suits aerbicly fit people. But that stroke should be a complete stroke, not a half short stroke.
Compare it with cycling, there you don,t use a slow heavy gear when going for a long ride, but a high spm and keep the bike spinning. Most people who use a low rate are tall, often overweight and can,t rate up.

A shorter guy like you should keep the rate certainly a bit higher, low rate would be way to much a slog on your body.

Anyway, goodluck and enjoy

[Marc1t]

Firstly thanks for your posts you have given mwe some good pointers, Im gonna be working in my technique & try & concentrate on lowering my stroke rate while maintaining speed, i think I can improve on this point I have been a lifelong athlete in competitive cycling so im in not bad shape but not at my fittest yet for this season its still early days. As for my weight I doubt if i could lose much more & I dont think its varied much since my teens. as for my hight Im 5' 10

Everyboy always talks about lowering strokerate, but in itself there is nothing wrong with a high rate. Its softer on the body and suits aerbicly fit people. But that stroke should be a complete stroke, not a half short stroke.
Compare it with cycling, there you don,t use a slow heavy gear when going for a long ride, but a high spm and keep the bike spinning. Most people who use a low rate are tall, often overweight and can,t rate up.

A shorter guy like you should keep the rate certainly a bit higher, low rate would be way to much a slog on your body.

Anyway, goodluck and enjoy

Mmmm interesting food for thought, thinking about that 10k there were more than a few strokes that were short im sure, the stroke rate i was pulling didnt feel particulally uncomfortable certainly enjoyed it though.

[hjs]

Search a bit on youtube for rowing clips, and for the erging itself, use your head, just doing something because people say so is not the way to go. There is also not a single style that suits everbody, so expiriment a bit.
Both on drag, search for that here on the forum and rate.

[gregsmith01748]

For first row, I think that's terrific. In the rankings, it is a little below the 50th percentile. But I bet with the form tips you'll improve quickly from this starting point.

How tall are you? If you are carrying more than 10 pounds of extra weight, you might want to row as a lightweight. (65kg)

??? At 70kg he is already 5 kg under the 75kg (165#) limit. Since he has been a competitive cyclist it is not likely that he has any extra weight to lose.

Bob S.

Oops. Sorry. You're right of course. I remembered the numbers incorrectly.

[Cyclingman1]

Everyboy always talks about lowering strokerate, but in itself there is nothing wrong with a high rate. Its softer on the body and suits aerbicly fit people. But that stroke should be a complete stroke, not a half short stroke.
Compare it with cycling, there you don,t use a slow heavy gear when going for a long ride, but a high spm and keep the bike spinning. Most people who use a low rate are tall, often overweight and can,t rate up.

Exactly. I see SRs of 20 or so as a means of developing power in a stroke. It's like hill climb repeats for runners. It's good, but it is not the primary training technique. I have slowed down some in SR over the last two yrs. I used to do everything around 32. Now, I range from 28-31. I've probably gotten stronger in the rowing stroke, having been a cyclist in the past. My height may keep me from mid-30s. I don't want the OP to think that he must constantly row at ~20 - it's just not so.

[Bob S.]

Most people who use a low rate are tall, often overweight and can,t rate up.

That's kind of harsh on us 12 spm advocates, hjs. I surely can't figure out how the hell I would do the start of a warmup at a 3:00 pace doing 30 spm. I would hardly be able feel the pull of the handle. I even did a satellite 2k at 24 spm once and still made the qualifying time. At 6'1" tops, I never was exactly what one would describe as tall. I had to look up at most of my crew mates in my OTW days. Nowadays, I am a scant 5'10", In the early days I was stuck at 172#, one of the little guys the coach put up in the bow to keep them out of the way. I am well below that weight now, unless I go on a post competition food binge.

Bob S.

[hjs]

Most people who use a low rate are tall, often overweight and can,t rate up.

That's kind of harsh on us 12 spm advocates, hjs. I surely can't figure out how the hell I would do the start of a warmup at a 3:00 pace doing 30 spm. I would hardly be able feel the pull of the handle. I even did a satellite 2k at 24 spm once and still made the qualifying time. At 6'1" tops, I never was exactly what one would describe as tall. I had to look up at most of my crew mates in my OTW days. Nowadays, I am a scant 5'10", In the early days I was stuck at 172#, one of the little guys the coach put up in the bow to keep them out of the way. I am well below that weight now, unless I go on a post competition food binge.

Bob S.

Why don,t you mention your age, in this a very important variable.

Bob, you fall way out off the bell curve, I understand you need to get going very gently, but rate is not needed for 99,9 % of ergers. Why do you need to feel the pull ?, you want to warm up nothing else.
The main reason people are so focussed on rate is A because you see it on the screen and B for otw rowers sin-chronicity s needed. For individual ergers rate is not that important.
Look at runners, swimmers, cyclists, does are a lot less pre occupied with spm.

[Bob S.]

@ hjs

Sure, at 89, there is no way that I can compare my performance with most of the other rowers, but the principle is the same. There should not be much variation in the effort expended for each stroke. Yes, I start out a warm up gently. That is why it is at a pace of 3:00. But I put the same effort into each stroke that I would at 30spm. I take it easy by rowing at 12spm. At 15spm, I would be using a pace of just over 2:47. At 18, it would be 2:37-2:38. At 20spm, I’d use 2:31-2:32. At 22spm, 2:27 would be about right. At 24spm, I would be at 2:22.5 – right in the middle of what I consider to be my AT zone. At 30spm, it would be well in the TR zone at 2:12-2:13. At 40, it would be just over 2:00, faster than my AN zone. I have used 40spm and even higher for sprints, especially for my recent 500m and 1k TTs, but I was probably not expended the full effort per stroke at that pace.

To go to the other extreme of the curve, Henrik Stephanson was reported at averaging 40spm in setting the current M lwt record of 5:56.7, a pace of <1:29.2. With that data, I figure that the following rates and paces would be right for the middle of the indicated zones:

UT2 21spm 1:50.3
UT1 26spm 1:40.3
AT 30spm 1:38.0
TR 37spm 1:31.0
AN 44spm 1:26.4

For some one in the middle of the curve, I’ll pick the 50th percentile of M 50-59, either weight. The 2k time for that this season is 7:48.3 (1:57.1). Stroke rate? How about 34spm to keep it a bit on what I would consider the high side? For the same zones, this would be the rates and paces:

18spm 2:24.5
22spm 2:19
25-6spm 2:09
31-32spm 2:00
37-38spm 1:53.5

The Wolverine plan is very highly regarded by many ergers as well as the OTW rowers. The key feature of the WP is the level 4., which includes a lot of low rate work. Here is a quote from the web describing level 4 that shows what the designer, Mike Caviston, had in mind.

For someone just being introduced to the Training Plan, Level 4 workouts will require the most explanation. These workouts make up the greatest proportion of total meters rowed, accounting for ~ 65-70% of training volume. Intensity is generally ~ 80-90% of 2K. Level 4 workouts are unique and contain a few features the other Levels do not. In the first place, stroke rating is always strictly prescribed, whereas rating for Levels 1-3 vary somewhat from person to person. The ratings are fairly low, beginning at 16spm and occasionally reaching 24 or even 26spm, but most ratings will be in the 18-22 range. On the water or on the erg, these workouts can be used to develop timing & rhythm as well as conditioning, since all rowers must follow the same cadence. But the primary physiological benefit is to develop not only endurance, but also strength and power per stroke. Another important benefit is to develop a very accurate sense of pacing. Still another potential benefit that encompasses psychological as well physiological and neurological adaptation, is that by learning to produce a given power output at lower ratings, it should be possible to eventually produce the same power output using a higher rating, creating a decreased perception of effort. In plain English, that means that even though you are performing the same amount of work on the oar, it feels easier and you are more likely to hold the pace longer.

Obviously this was designed for OTW crews, but other than the comment about all rowers following the same cadence, it applies to single scullers and ergers as well.

Bob S.