Force Curve

[PDYFlyfish]

My force curve is nothing like that shown on the Concept website. It is a flat long curve without a lot of height. I think my form is pretty good. Any thoughts?

[Alissa]

Post a video here of yourself rowing. And a photo of your force curve. It's difficult to have opinions about things we haven't seen.

Alissa

[hjs]

My force curve is nothing like that shown on the Concept website. It is a flat long curve without a lot of height. I think my form is pretty good. Any thoughts?

Depends on the speed you row with, if that is not so fast, the force curve will be not so high. What pace per 500 and what rate do you use?

[PDYFlyfish]

Thanks to all who responded. I am not very computer savvy but will try to post videos. I am 59 and consider myself in pretty decent shape but by no means an elite athlete. I ride a bicycle between 3500 and 4000 miles yearly at 17 to 18 mph over hilly terrain. I still play full court basketball, so I am pretty active.

My 50 meter times are between 2:40 and 2:50 at 26 to 28 strokes per minute. I feel I am getting a good workout.
Thanks.

[brianh]

Flat can be good and efficient, although when I was trying to focus on a flat profile it wound up being more tiring on my lats than the usual curve. But if you're not specifically trying for a flat curve it's probably a technique error. To get a flatter curve, I engage my lats at the catch, but still delay the arm motion until after the leg drive is complete. This make the lats themselves part of the transmission of power from the legs to the handle, rather than letting it go from legs to back extensors to skeleton to handle. I had read some article that was touting the benefits of this on the water, on the claim that it lets the rowers get away with lighter rigging by reducing the peak force of the stroke, without changing the overall work input (too lazy to try to find article, not exceptionally relevant). I tried it out of sheer curiosity; I've never touched an actual rowing boat and just wanted to play with controlling my curve's shape to compare things. I've since abandoned trying for that curve because the lat fatigue severely limited how much rowing I could do before my form collapsed.

Given your other activities, particularly your cycling (which is 4x as many miles as mine at higher speed), and your split time (which is very slow) I'd say that you're doing something wrong and could improve a lot if you correct it. I'm not a form expert, and there are others on this forum who will be able to offer great advice if you can get videos up. But, my guess would be that you're engaging your upper body too soon and not actually getting good leg drive in. With your cycling in particular, you should be able to get good power out of your legs, you just have to make your body realize what it needs to do first. I'd suggest watching the technique videos on the C2 site (http://www.concept2.com/indoor-rowers/t ... que-videos) and comparing the timing of the different parts of the stroke to how you're doing it.

What I did to teach my legs how to behave properly was a session of legs-only rowing: hold the handle, row without using back tilt, shoulders, or arms. Focus on pushing fast like jumping, not necessarily on pushing strong like doing squats. Do a few strokes at a time rather than trying to do it steady-state. See how high you can burst your pace; with that many miles in the saddle I'd think getting the 500m split to 1:40ish should be doable for short efforts. As soon as you've gotten a feel for that, go back to rowing regularly, incorporating that same amount of speed and force from the legs in each stroke. Hopefully you can get what you need out of the legs-only drill in just a couple of minutes and be done with it. Make sure you're warmed up and well-stretched before trying this, or it might be hard on your lower back; it'll be nicer if you're tilted back slightly and just don't lean forward for the catch.

[Citroen]

Since you're a cyclist you should be able to do better than 2:50 pace, you've got enough miles in your legs. Your legs are the engine that drives the rower.
Rowing is drive with the LEGS then BODY then ARMS and reverse ARMS, BODY, LEGS coming back to the catch.

Have a look at the technique videos on YouTube and http://www.concept2.com/indoor-rowers/t ... que-videos
Have a look at whether you're "slide shooting" http://therowingcompany.com/training/fa ... ions_video

[jamesg]

My 500meter times are between 2:40 and 2:50 at 26 to 28 strokes per minute. I feel I am getting a good workout.

It all depends on technique, size and sex as well as age, but anyway that's 85W and should be enough (but only just, if you're a large male) to get up a little sweat. Suggest you aim to pull at 0.5 to 1 W per pound of body mass. Rating 26-28 is highish for that 85 W (only 3 W'/stroke), so you need to work on technique to start with; this is needed because in rowing the work goes to the handle from the legs through trunk and arms, and not direct to the pedals as on a bike, so we have to learn how.

Low drag helps us to pull a fast full length stroke and take our time on the recovery. You can check technical progress by watching the Watt/Rating ratio, but without trying to move a mountain at each stroke.

[Bob S.]

My 500meter times are between 2:40 and 2:50 at 26 to 28 strokes per minute. I feel I am getting a good workout.

It all depends on technique, size and sex as well as age, but anyway that's 85W and should be enough (but only just, if you're a large male) to get up a little sweat. Suggest you aim to pull at 0.5 to 1 W per pound of body mass. Rating 26-28 is highish for that 85 W (only 3 W'/stroke), so you need to work on technique to start with; this is needed because in rowing the work goes to the handle from the legs through trunk and arms, and not direct to the pedals as on a bike, so we have to learn how.

Low drag helps us to pull a fast full length stroke and take our time on the recovery. You can check technical progress by watching the Watt/Rating ratio, but without trying to move a mountain at each stroke.

Correction added in edit: I see that I missed the fact the pace quoted was 2:40 - 2:50. I had used the 2:50 and I realize now that jamesq had used the 2:40. I still wonder why my original post disappeared after it was on the board when I first posted it.

???? I had sent a similar message in, but somehow it disappeared from the postings (censored??), but I had come up with 71.2 watts and 2.54 W'/stroke. Since I had based this on my own calculation, I just checked it with the C2 calculator available on line and that came up with 71.2 as well. In any case, I made the point that, at age 89, I regularly try to stick to about 5 W'/stroke. A 59 yo male in good condition should certainly go higher than that. In this case, it is very likely a matter of technique. I suspect that the OP is using a 1/1 ratio for drive to recovery - whereas the rower should be using a full length, hard, quick drive and a slow, relaxed recovery.

Bob S.

[hjs]

What might help is counting, count 21,22,23,
21 is for the drive, 22 and 23 for the recovery. Not an exact science this way, but it takes one out of the 1/1 cycle motion people often use.

[PDYFlyfish]

Thanks to all who replied with helpful hints and links. I did a 5500 meter row this AM in 29.30, which is not bad for me. 2:40 for 500 meters. Getting better. Thanks again.

[lrex]

Hi, I am a novice high school rower and I had a question about perfecting force curves. I was on a rowperfect today and my coach looked at my power curve and told me I had to work on it. My curve rises sharply with a quick catch, but then there is a hitch in the curve where there in no power acceleration. After the hitch, my curve continues like a parabola. I was wondering what that hitch may be from and how a good power curve can really help erg scores. I row a 21:28 6k, and my coach said that my power curve may be holding my times back. Thanks