Getting HR up on Concept2

[carlb]

So last night i did 5000 m.
I took some of your suggestions, faster, harder drive, easier recovery. Also slightly lowered DF from 130 to 118.
Ended up with time of 27:03, avg pace 2:42, avg power 82 W, Avg SPM 26
For the first time, this got my HR up into my aerobic zone - low end but still better than I've managed before.
HR got into aerobic zone when I got my power over 95W and stroke rate around 27-28.
Am I on the right track? Any more suggestions would be welcome!

DF of 118 sounds great. SPM of 26 is on the high side for 82W. Try to get SPM down to 20-23 so you are pulling harder. Do that by slowing the recovery, don't stop, pull quick. Target a 2:30 pace.

You don't define what you mean by "aerobic zone"? Like UT2 at 65% of HRR? Or UT1 at 80%? Working at 75% HRR is a good effort at which to adapt to the rower.

You need more time rowing to adapt and get stronger, try 5 days/week for 20-30 minutes. See how you're doing in 30 days. You may progress faster doing some intervals so you can pull much harder, then rest, e.g. row 500m hard, rest 4 min, repeat.

Work on your technique. The C2 UK site has great Faults and Corrections info. The basic stroke is demo'd by Master Instructor Terry Smythe as leaning forward to 11 o'clock at the catch and leaning back only to 1 o'clock at the end of the drive. Rowing without straps will help you feel if you have too much movement.

[Carl Watts]

Your putting no where near enough power ito each stroke and it is reflected in your pace. Don't drop the DF to 118 unless you have massive amounts of leg speed or you are just racing up and down the slide but going nowhere fast.

Even my low HR UT2 5Km training rows are done at below 2:00 pace at 21 spm. Try experimenting with increasing your pace without increasing the rating, in fact try dropping your rating and focus on more power per stroke. You will find that dropping the rating, but still going at the same 2:42 pace will have a dramitic efect on raising your HR.

You should however notice some rapid performance gains after a few months of regular training and will look back and be able to laugh at your early results.

[jasperm]

Okay - I'm getting it.
I have RowPro and I set up a training plan using it.
Did 3868 m, avg pace 2:35, avg power 94W (peak about 120), avg SR 23spm
Did better with heart rate. Getting the concept of lower SR but more power.
I think I understand what I need to do now - kind of counter-intuitive at first.

Michael

[bobkwan2007]

Something doesn't sound right here. For someone of decent height, weight, and fitness to be outputting only 94 watts for 3800m, and at 23spm, is quite strange to me. Either your technique is horrible or your fitness is very poor, or both.

[Carl Watts]

Something doesn't sound right here. For someone of decent height, weight, and fitness to be outputting only 94 watts for 3800m, and at 23spm, is quite strange to me. Either your technique is horrible or your fitness is very poor, or both.

Ouch, do we not try to focus on the positives here and encourage new users to improve ? Yes some of us cannot even row that slow if we tried at 12spm, but everyone has to start somewhere and obviously big improvements are on the horizon for those that we support and help to keep up the training.

[bobkwan2007]

Point taken, Carl. But I didn't mean it as jab at the OP, but as a puzzlement, that someone who seems to have a good level of fitness and of good size should be able to do more. One has ask why not.

Of course we all try to be helpful when we can, but when something doesn't seem right I have to ask, why isn't he able to go faster? Is it his technique? Is it too high DF? Is it a weak upper body? Because being a cyclist surely his legs must be disproportionately more powerful. I've read enough threads here from cyclists of similar stature who climb on the erg, and within a few workouts are able to crank out sub-2:00 pace 5k's. One has to ask. And I'm going to guess that it's probably a case of poor technique rather than poor fitness.

[jasperm]

I appreciate the input even if the delivery was not the most sensitive.
We might need to see a couples therapist.

But seriously, when I'm rowing, I don't feel like my legs are working very hard at all. I think I have the timing reasonably good - not perfect no doubt, but I'm initiating with legs, then back (arms still straight), and then finishing with arms down and elbows back, wrists straight, all completing essentially simultaneously.

I feel like my arms are definitely working hard, but my legs - barely notice it. Yesterday, when I started pushing hard with my arms - really trying to pull faster, I was starting to get strokes that hit almost 140 watts.

Does that suggest anything in particular?

Michael

[Cyclingman1]

I would like to weigh in here, though I am a serious non-expert. However, I'm 66 and a relative newcomer to rowing, which may be relevant.

First of all, given the athletic background of the OP, a sustained power output below 100W just does not sound right. 87 yo Bob S just did 5000m at 129W. No way does a 54 yo guy in good health with an athletic background not beat that - easily. Sorry, Bob.

I don't understand the obsession with getting HR up. It is sort of counterintuitive. Let's say that I can row 2K in 7 min at 65% Max HR. I wouldn't want to increase HR at that distance and time. Quite to the contrary. What it says is that I have untapped potential. Perhaps at 85% Max HR I can row 2K in 6:30. Raising HR beyond what is necessary to accomplish a level of activity seems to not make sense. If I row at say 2:30/500m my heart rate scarcely elevates. So what? I wouldn't expect it to.

Rowing is all about power input. Very light pulling while traversing the slide at any rate will not produce a high output power rating. Driving hard with legs and pulling with back and arms is the only way power is input to the rower and then reflected in the output. There is also the frequecy of said pull. Higher frequency up to the point of sustainability, given the same level of pull, will produce more power.

I don't think there is any great merit in low pull rates. I never, never row in the low 20s. In fact, I'm invariably in the low 30s. It is all tradeoff. Huge pull inputs require slower rates because of recovery needs. Lesser power inputs permit higher rates. I think a more aerobically inclined person will be more comfortable with higher rates, while a more powerful person will like slower rates. They may both end up at the same place/pace.

[Bob S.]

First of all, given the athletic background of the OP, a sustained power output below 100W just does not sound right. 87 yo Bob S just did 5000m at 129W. No way does a 54 yo guy in good health with an athletic background not beat that - easily. Sorry, Bob.

No apology necessary. That was precisely the point that I was trying to make - in a round about way.

Bob S.

[jasperm]

Hey guys -

So all of the above makes sense. In terms of the obsession with HR - I'm not doing this due to a particular interest in rowing (although I'm starting to really like it!). I came to this as part of my overall fitness program. In fact, kung fu is my primary activity, but it can be difficult to get a consistent aerobic workout from it, while also having time to work on skills. So I'm trying to round out my activities to get more overall fitness - thus my interest in the rower (along with biking and treadmill).
So getting my HR up (that is, working at an effort level that causes that) is a primary goal. I'm not that interested in what pace I accomplish (other than as a marker of progress).

I just responded to a private message by clarifying what I said earlier:
When I said pushing with my arms, of course it is really "pulling" with my arms - but pushing in the sense of "pushing it" - working really hard with my arms. When I really made a point of pulling hard and fast with arms at end of stroke, saw power go up markedly to around 130-140W.

When I emphasize my legs more, I seem to get to end of stroke too fast to fully use my arms - maybe because I have very well-developed quads from biking. So I suspect the problem with my technique is embedded in this somewhere. I think I'm deliberately holding back with my legs to leave time for a good arm pull. Maybe I just need to keep working on strengthening my arms (upper body definitely much less developed) so they can keep up with my legs?

Michael

[jvincent]

This is the kind of thing where a video would help to diagnose.

There's another thread going on where the person had similar numbers to yours and the video of him rowing showed several areas that were contributing to his low power output.

[bobkwan2007]

This is the kind of thing where a video would help to diagnose.

Exactly what I was going to suggest.

[pberge]

When I emphasize my legs more, I seem to get to end of stroke too fast to fully use my arms - maybe because I have very well-developed quads from biking. So I suspect the problem with my technique is embedded in this somewhere. I think I'm deliberately holding back with my legs to leave time for a good arm pull. Maybe I just need to keep working on strengthening my arms (upper body definitely much less developed) so they can keep up with my legs?

You said in an earlier post that you decreased your drag factor from 130 to 118. If you have very powerful legs, 118 might just be too low, which will cause the flywheel to accelerate too quickly early in your drive and leave very little for the arms to do. What you are describing is exactly what I feel when my damper is set too low.

[jasperm]

Okay -will a) experiment with higher DF and more drive from legs and,
b) setting up a way to take a video when I'm on rower.

[Byron Drachman]

I feel like my arms are definitely working hard, but my legs - barely notice it. Yesterday, when I started pushing hard with my arms - really trying to pull faster, I was starting to get strokes that hit almost 140 watts.

Does that suggest anything in particular?

Another possibility is "shooting the slide." When you first start the leg drive if the seat moves faster than the handle does, then the legs move quickly but not apply enough power to the handle and footboard. A common drill is to keep the forward lean, keep the arms straight and relaxed, and take some strokes keeping the same body position (no opening of the back and keep the arms straight and relaxed) in order to feel what the first part of the drive feels like.