Realistic improvement in older athletes?

General discussion on Training. How to get better on your erg, how to use your erg to get better at another sport, or anything else about improving your abilities.
stroke
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Re: Realistic improvement in older athletes?

Post by stroke » March 19th, 2012, 4:59 am

Citroen wrote:
stroke wrote:Interesting that Ranger and Cyclingman both have a best time of 6.42 for 2k, has any one seen them in the same room? :roll:
Their IP addresses give the game away. Cyclingman1 is geo-located in Atlanta. Ranger is still using UMICH as an ISP.
Why are you still responding to Ranger bait? I thought you banned him. Even though I would never claim to have your knowledge of all things IT it aint hard to geo locate yourself to Atlanta. :shock: :P

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Re: Realistic improvement in older athletes?

Post by Citroen » March 19th, 2012, 7:05 am

stroke wrote:
Citroen wrote:
stroke wrote:Interesting that Ranger and Cyclingman both have a best time of 6.42 for 2k, has any one seen them in the same room? :roll:
Their IP addresses give the game away. Cyclingman1 is geo-located in Atlanta. Ranger is still using UMICH as an ISP.
Why are you still responding to Ranger bait? I thought you banned him. Even though I would never claim to have your knowledge of all things IT it aint hard to geo locate yourself to Atlanta. :shock: :P
Since our hero has a struggle to find the on-off switch on his computer (judging by his crap about broken camera cables) there's no way he could do that.

He's not banned from here. His thread on here was locked and he disappeared to the UK blog because of that.

Cyclingman1
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Re: Realistic improvement in older athletes?

Post by Cyclingman1 » March 19th, 2012, 7:24 am

Apparently, Mr. Ranger is known by several in this discussion. In the rankings for 1K,2K,5K for 2012 find my profile link for verification that I am NOT Mr. Ranger.

MikVan, I'm absorbing the various ideas about training, esp in terms of vol. It is too early for me to say how it will all develop for me. As we said before, it is interesting to see who is coming up and wonder if their good times will be maintained in older groups. I suppose the name that sticks out in the upper 50's, HWT is James Crawford. Most interesting to me would be how he trains. In the 60s division, TJ Osterling is heads and shoulders above all. Yet, even he is not going to break Paul Hendershott's 2K record.

I agree that if rowing is not fun in some respects, then it is likely to be an exercise in futilty.
JimG, Gainesville, Ga, 78, 76", 205lb. PBs:
66-69: .5,1,2,5,6,10K: 1:30.8 3:14.1 6:40.7 17:34.0 21:18.1 36:21.7 30;60;HM: 8337 16237 1:20:25
70-78: .5,1,2,5,6,10K: 1:32.7 3:19.5 6:58.1 17:55.3 21:32.6 36:41.9 30;60;HM: 8214 15353 1:23:02.5

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Re: Realistic improvement in older athletes?

Post by PaulH » March 19th, 2012, 10:43 am

stroke wrote:Why are you still responding to Ranger bait? I thought you banned him.
Ranger lied when reporting his training. I called him on it, asking that he either post proof that he hadn't lied (and earn a sincere apology from me), or apologize to the forum. He chose to do neither, so I locked his thread. For now he isn't banned, but the only thing he's allowed to post is the proof or the apology. I imagine in due course I'll grow tired of deleting posts from him that are neither of those and ban him outright, but I'd rather not as it's not the historical norm of this forum to ban non-spammers.

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Re: Realistic improvement in older athletes?

Post by carlb » March 19th, 2012, 11:45 am

Cyclingman1 wrote:Unfortunately, my uninterrupted progress on my rowing will be taking a hit due to my emphasis on cycling starting right about now. 132 miles this last week on my bike. But I will be rowing in my cycling gaps.

I'm interested to see how any older athlete improves. I would like to see specifics on training. I simply ask that it all be legit - accurate results, etc. Someone improving 20+ secs in a short amount of time will make my quest seem doable.
Have you read "Wolverine Plan Remarks by Mike Caviston - 13 Jul"? It seems to fit your question. Mike reflects on his own training to try to get to his best 2k erg time. His training is as much as 200,000 meters/week and 11 workouts. He hits on missed training costing him, also his progress.

Here's one link http://www.eudemonia.co.uk/wp%20notes.pdf

Some excerpts from the section "Reflections On Training"
------------------------------
The history of the Wolverine Plan dates back to about 1998, when I started to think I might like to see what kind of 2K erg score I could pull in competition if I prepared properly. I had been training on the erg and coaching crew for years, so I wasn't a novice and I was already in decent shape. My erg training had centered for years around the types of workouts described in the Wolverine Plan as Levels 1-3. But I was looking for even more structure and something new to supplement what I had been doing, to give me new focus and to allow me to quantify my progress as specifically as possible. Most of the training effect regarding 2K scores comes from shorter, high-intensity workouts (Level 1 & 2), but I was interested in further maximizing performance and keeping my weight low using increased volume. After tinkering around a bit I came up with the type of workouts I now refer to as Level 4. (I am not going to go into the theories behind Level 4 or the potential benefits at this time.) But the program has worked well for me. I managed to improve my 2K time from approx. 6:26 at the age of 36, to 6:24 at 37, 6:21 at 38, 6:20 at 39, and finally 6:18 at the ripe old age of 40. This year, at the age of 41, I hoped to shave even another second off my PR. It didn't happen (6:21 was this year's best time), and I'll share some observations and give my opinions regarding what was different last year vs. this.

....

The more years I spend training myself and others, the more clearly I see that performance is directly linked to training in a straightforward input-output relationship. Good performances or bad performances don't "just happen". Simply stated, more training = better performance. People who perform poorly do so because they did not keep up with their training (for whatever reasons, legitimate or not). I don't want to get into a whole thing about overtraining or quality of training. I take it as self-evident that training should avoid meters-for-meters- sake (aka "junk meters" as someone has cleverly called them), and that at some point even the most elite or well- conditioned athlete will show performance decrements when training volume becomes too large. But any given athlete will show greater improvement training 6, 7, 8, or 9 times a week vs. 4 or 5. Of course the rate of improvement is not linear and each individual has to decide how much time they are able/willing to invest relative to their performance goals. (For example, I have settled on 11 workouts/week as being most practical for me.) I

...

My period of Specific Preparation for CRASH-B lasts 26 weeks (began week of August 25 last summer). I haven't found it possible to begin serious training before that date because of my work schedule (a lot of manual labor working for my landlord to supplement my teaching/coaching income), less access to training facilities, and the hot/humid Michigan weather. So I try to accomplish as much as I can in 26 weeks. In a given week I attempt to perform 11 workouts and cover on average about 190K (I went over 200K a couple times but found it hard to get in that much volume consistently). But if anything prevents me from doing all 11 workouts or putting in my normal amount of meters, that cuts into my Potential Training and the 26 weeks can become whittled down bit by bit over the season.

...

... there is much much more in this document.

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Re: Realistic improvement in older athletes?

Post by Yankeerunner » March 19th, 2012, 12:22 pm

Thanks Carl, for the oldie-but-goodie. I've read through the Wolverine Plan several times to refresh in my mind the sensible training advice. It's good to also refresh Mike's additional thoughts such as the ones you've posted.
55-59: 1:33.5 3:19.2 6:55.7 18:22.0 2:47:26.5
60-64: 1:35.9 3:23.8 7:06.7 18:40.8 2:48:53.6
65-69: 1:38.6 3:31.9 7:19.2 19:26.6 3:02:06.0
70-74: 1:40.2 3:33.4 7:32.6 19:50.5 3:06:36.8
75-76: 1:43.9 3:47.7 7:50.2 20:51.3 3:13:55.7

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Re: Realistic improvement in older athletes?

Post by Cyclingman1 » March 19th, 2012, 12:43 pm

I read through a good bit of the Wolverine Plan. I have no doubt that if one could follow the plan esp with the feedback of a coach, he or she is bound to get better. I found the general ideas of most interest. Being able to do the complete workout consistently may be for me the best advice. And then the consistency across weeks is important. Effective training plans are usually pretty similar - not too many secrets in getting better.
JimG, Gainesville, Ga, 78, 76", 205lb. PBs:
66-69: .5,1,2,5,6,10K: 1:30.8 3:14.1 6:40.7 17:34.0 21:18.1 36:21.7 30;60;HM: 8337 16237 1:20:25
70-78: .5,1,2,5,6,10K: 1:32.7 3:19.5 6:58.1 17:55.3 21:32.6 36:41.9 30;60;HM: 8214 15353 1:23:02.5

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Re: Realistic improvement in older athletes?

Post by Bob S. » March 19th, 2012, 2:27 pm

Cyclingman1 wrote:I read through a good bit of the Wolverine Plan. I have no doubt that if one could follow the plan esp with the feedback of a coach, he or she is bound to get better. I found the general ideas of most interest. Being able to do the complete workout consistently may be for me the best advice. And then the consistency across weeks is important. Effective training plans are usually pretty similar - not too many secrets in getting better.
The WP has one feature that you won't find in other plans and that is the varying of rate and pace in the L-4 pieces. I have not used this myself; I am too lazy to read through the plan carefully and follow all the steps. However it is my impression that a lot of rowers, including those with a lot of previous experience, have benefited from this type of training. I believe that the big advantage of it is that it gives you a better feel for your capabilities and better control over both rate and pace. You don't get that from the typical UT2 and UT1 workouts of other plans. If nothing else, it must take a lot of the boredom out of long rows since you have to focus on the workout schedule of rates and paces. Perhaps that is the secret - you are forced to keep focused which doesn't happen on the usual long, steady state pieces that are used for building endurance.

Bob S.

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Re: Realistic improvement in older athletes?

Post by Byron Drachman » March 19th, 2012, 3:06 pm

Cyclingman1 wrote:I read through a good bit of the Wolverine Plan. I have no doubt that if one could follow the plan esp with the feedback of a coach, he or she is bound to get better. I found the general ideas of most interest. Being able to do the complete workout consistently may be for me the best advice. And then the consistency across weeks is important. Effective training plans are usually pretty similar - not too many secrets in getting better.
It sounds to me like you already have an excellent understanding of what is involved in trying to improve performance. It is very much like cycling. After a good specific training program you can get to a certain level, and after that the extra improvements are hard to attain. Just like cycling, the basic fact is that power is proportional to the velocity cubed, so for example if you want to double your speed you need to apply 2^3=8 times as much power. Even a 10 percent increase in speed requires a 33 percent increase in power. Of course that is the simple model and there is more involved than that simple formula. That simple formula explains why once you are near your limits, as Mike already said, further gains in speed become harder to attain. But you already know that I am sure.

I have a couple of suggestions. If you don't want to get coaching in person yet, if you post a video you might be pleasantly surprised to find how generous and helpful people at this forum can be. When you are near your limits, technique can help you be more efficient.

It might not be an issue for you yet, but as you get older you might want to include some extra core work in your training. Back and rib injuries are much less common among collegiate rowers now that most programs include strength, flexibility, and core work. Mike Caviston referred to the fact that core strength is very important. I found at around age 70 I had to do start doing extra core work and work on flexibility to avoid lower back pain. Cyclists tend to have tight hamstrings so some extra attention there might be in order.

One more thought: In the future if you want to try something new and enjoyable, it appears you have on the water rowing available in Atlanta. Have you seen the on the water (OTW) thread? Think of the difference between riding a stationary bike indoors and riding on the road or a track.

BTW, it is obvious that Cyclingman1 is not Ranger. Cyclingman1 writes with an impressive command of the language.

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Re: Realistic improvement in older athletes?

Post by Cyclingman1 » March 19th, 2012, 5:51 pm

I really do not think that technique, per se, is my issue. I notice that I feel efficient or not so efficient based on fatigue. The bottom line is that to race, high end fitness is needed - fitness that is sport specific. I have general fitness; that may be 75% of the battle. I simply have to get fitter pulling a handle connected to a flywheel. I have to develop power and longevity. That will take time. I want to have that consistent efficient feeling where I am rowing within my capabilities, if that makes sense. When I get tired, I get ragged and feel like I'm struggling to pull hard. If I feel that way, undoubtedly I look that way. The only two answers I know are to stay with my fitness limits or expand where that limit is.

Re: a coach. I mentioned before finding a coach in Atlanta might be pretty hard, esp for indoor rowing. I can consider getting my dig camera up to snuff and posting a few seconds of rowing. Like another poster here, I'm not sure that I have the patience to follow exactly a plan like the WP. It does seem somewhat involved. I have not dead-ended in what I am doing. I am making progress, even though on a daily basis that may not be linear up.
JimG, Gainesville, Ga, 78, 76", 205lb. PBs:
66-69: .5,1,2,5,6,10K: 1:30.8 3:14.1 6:40.7 17:34.0 21:18.1 36:21.7 30;60;HM: 8337 16237 1:20:25
70-78: .5,1,2,5,6,10K: 1:32.7 3:19.5 6:58.1 17:55.3 21:32.6 36:41.9 30;60;HM: 8214 15353 1:23:02.5

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Re: Realistic improvement in older athletes?

Post by Cyclingman1 » April 10th, 2012, 3:16 pm

If the readers of this discussion do not find it too terribly forward, I would like to report that I was able to best the World Record at 2000m of 6:41.4 set in 2011 for 65+, by rowing a 6:40.7 (1:40.17) this afternoon, Apr 10. I started this thread as most know to discuss the possibilities of an older athlete improving. I started rowing seriously on Jan 9, having no idea what I could achieve. I was somewhat humbled at the Atlanta Erg Sprints on Feb 11, finding the 2K to be really hard. But my interest was piqued. I thought I had a chance to best 6:41 and finally made it improving 17 seconds in 60 days.

I am an odd bird when it comes to this rowing business. I row maybe 25K a week. My 1K time is 3:17.2 (1:38.6). My best 1 x 500m time is 1:35.8. All the predictions say I cannot do 1:40.2 for 2K. But somehow I'm here. I have not done the speed and power work that I need to do. I know, I will have do it to get to 6:32 or so. I'm positive that 6:40.7 will not stand for long. [Course, it is unofficial] I find 5000m to be a great distance for me. It requires strength and endurance. I have my sights set on the WR of 17:13 for 60+. My 2K efforts definitely feed off of 5K, not the shorter distances. At least that is my theory.

Thanks for the support. Several have lent encouragement and good advice. I do listen even if I go my own way. I will be trying to become a really good rower for the Crash-B of 2013.
JimG, Gainesville, Ga, 78, 76", 205lb. PBs:
66-69: .5,1,2,5,6,10K: 1:30.8 3:14.1 6:40.7 17:34.0 21:18.1 36:21.7 30;60;HM: 8337 16237 1:20:25
70-78: .5,1,2,5,6,10K: 1:32.7 3:19.5 6:58.1 17:55.3 21:32.6 36:41.9 30;60;HM: 8214 15353 1:23:02.5

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Re: Realistic improvement in older athletes?

Post by Robert Wildes » April 10th, 2012, 3:31 pm

Cyclingman1that is an amazing time in my opinion. 25K a week is extremely low volume also. Are you cross training with biking and/or other activities?
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Re: Realistic improvement in older athletes?

Post by Cyclingman1 » April 10th, 2012, 3:51 pm

Robert, my moniker gives me away. I am a cyclist and ex duathlon [run/bike] competitor, although that was quite a long time ago. I once was a great cyclist. Now I ride 2/3 times a week with no real goals in mind. Actually rowing has made me cut back on cycling. I have only so much energy. I row 3, sometimes 4, times a week. I have averaged 18Km a week since Jan. Obviously, I'm not aiming for HM or FM rowing. 10K is at the outer edge of what I will or want to do.

I don't minimize what cycling has meant to my rowing. I have a huge base in cycling - 40+ yrs. I'm still feeding off of that. Plus I was a decent runner. 1:21:40 for a half marathon at age 45. Not too bad, if I may say so.
JimG, Gainesville, Ga, 78, 76", 205lb. PBs:
66-69: .5,1,2,5,6,10K: 1:30.8 3:14.1 6:40.7 17:34.0 21:18.1 36:21.7 30;60;HM: 8337 16237 1:20:25
70-78: .5,1,2,5,6,10K: 1:32.7 3:19.5 6:58.1 17:55.3 21:32.6 36:41.9 30;60;HM: 8214 15353 1:23:02.5

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Re: Realistic improvement in older athletes?

Post by Nosmo » April 10th, 2012, 5:52 pm

CYCLEMAN!, GREAT JOB!

You did it! Didn't think you would do it the way you did when you first showed up but you proved me wrong. Congratulations!

Let me disagree with you once more. Your 5K did indicate that you were ready to go under 6:41. Now your 2K time indicates you can do a 3:12 for the 1K right now with.

Great job. It is inspiring.

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Re: Realistic improvement in older athletes?

Post by RBFC » April 10th, 2012, 6:57 pm

Cyclingman,

Awesome work! You're a great example of how improvement is something we can always achieve if we do the work.

Lee
Age:61 Ht: 186 cm Wt: 102kg
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