Ranger's training thread

[Rockin Roland]

I am not tired.

I strained some muscles.

Most 60s rowers can't row well for more than a couple of minutes.


ranger

That might be the case in the USA where everyone spends long winters training on static C2 ergs which cause them to develope lots of bad technique habits. However down in my neck of the woods where ergs are shunned, there are plenty of people over 60 that can row well, regardless of how long they have been on the water.

As over many years you have spent countless hours on that static C2 erg, which encourages poor technique, incorrect body sequence has become ingrained into your technique. This poor technique remains with you when you go out in your boat. You row in your boat with way too much upper body and not enough with the legs and hips (with incorrect body sequence) and look at the end result. You've done yourself an injury.

I keep telling people on this forum, if you want to row well on the water then use a dynamic erg(or slides). Static ergs are a waste of time and only lead to poor rowing form.

And No Ranger..... don't come back with a post saying that you now row well with an improved stroke....because your technique is still rubbish.

[ranger]

As over many years you have spent countless hours on that static C2 erg

Indeed, I have.

which encourages poor technique

Yes, I agree that the erg encourages poor technique, if you let it, which most do. I don't think that the erg _enforces_ poor technique, though. You can use good OTW technique when you row OTErg, if you know how to do it, and knowing how, _can_ do it.

incorrect body sequence has become ingrained into your technique.

Indeed it has. But I have been finding ways to unlearn what has been ingrained and develop better habits. Sure, these habits are far from perfect and probably will remain so. But these new habits are different in a couple dozen ways from what I used to do OTErg when I just pulled at the catch with all of my levers, with the drag at max, leading with my upper body and then dragging my legs behind and finishing with my back as well. The difference in effectiveness is right around 3 SPI (13 SPI vs. 10 SPI). With better sequencing, timing, footwork, length, recoveries, etc., I now get 30% more work done per stroke. That's a lot! In my everyday low UT1 rowing, that comes out to be a difference of almost 10 seconds per 500m at the same rate. What I used to do, 1:53 @ 25 spm (10 SPI), I now do 1:43 @ 25 (13 SPI). Given my age and intentions, this is fine for my purposes.

This poor technique remains with you when you go out in your boat. You row in your boat with way too much upper body and not enough with the legs and hips (with incorrect body sequence)

You don't have any video of my recent OTW rowing. The last OTW video I posted is three years old. I'll get some new video posted and you can check it out. Undoubtedly, you are still right, in part. But I can now do a nice 2:10 @ 22 spm, 2:00 @ 27 spm, etc., in my boat. That isn't bad at all for a 60-year-old. Sure, I would like to do 2:00 @ 25 spm, and I think I will, but that will just depend on getting better at a number of things that don't have anything to do with the timing and sequencing of my stroke OTW, I think.

and look at the end result. You've done yourself an injury.

Yes. If you row well, there is quite a bit of stress on your lats and intercostals if you relax them entirely at the catch when you fire off with your quads from the balls of your feet. There is also quite a bit more _use_ of the lats if you finish by accelerating the handle with your arms braced against your back with energy directed toward the balls of the feet pushing the boat/wheel away at the footplate, rather than finishing with your back, as I used to do, with energy directed toward the bow/backstops. I now get 135 kg.F of peak force at the catch with my legs, rowing at low drag, and 13 SPI overall, given my better finishes. In trying to change my habits in the direction of these better catches and finishes, I have probably worked a bit too hard, which encouraged the injury.

I keep telling people on this forum, if you want to row well on the water then use a dynamic erg(or slides). Static ergs are a waste of time and only lead to poor rowing form

Sure, I would be interested in getting some slides and a dynamic erg, and will do this soon. I just haven't done it yet. Yes, rowing OTErg can encourage poor rowing form, but again, I don't think it _enforces_ poor form.

And No Ranger..... don't come back with a post saying that you now row well with an improved stroke....because your technique is still rubbish.

Sorry, but there is no reason to misrepresent the situation, just because you think I should.

ranger

[ranger]

In the meantime, you have all of the people and equipment necessary to publish a nice little fireside chat with your brother where you discuss your novel take on how rowing does not involve physiological stress

No reason to convince him of something I haven't claimed and don't believe.

Sure, rowing involves _enormous_ physiological stress.

But the capacity to withstand this physiological stress doesn't determine who is fast and who isn't.

All sorts of people are physiologically fit.

But most of them can't row a lick, and so, whether OTErg or OTW, aren't any good at rowing at all.

Rowing is primarily technical and skeletal-muscular.

The rower with the best stroke wins.

To be fast at rowing, you need to move the boat (or spin the wheel) a long way on each stroke--easily.

That's quite a trick.

The capacity to do a lot of work doesn't have anything to do with it.

The issue is how well you can row, not how hard you can grunt.

ranger

[ranger]

Since our intrepid hero has decided that his intercostal strain, often considered a precursor to a stress fracture, or stress fracture is not due to rowing but instead to lifting a jet ski, this will be of no interest to him. However, some of his devoted followers might find be interested in these excerpts from

http://www.hudsonboatworks.com/fileBin/ ... ea0932.pdf

--snip-- We have discussed some of the key the forces at play (see R&D Note #10) but the key proven factors of rowing rib stress fractures are increased long distance training and heavy stroke loading.

--snip--

There are also some key technique findings with rowers who have suffered stress fractures. These include a higher seat velocity, higher speed of initial drive phase with lower knee-extension to elbow flexion strength ratio (meaning a lot of power is coming from the arms relative to the legs) and a pronounced layback position at the finish.

High SPI OTW (accepting your dubious definition) means heavy stroke loading, and higher seat velocity, higher speed of initial drive phase... are related to the quest for the .5 seconds of drive time.

Yes.

As I explained above, my intercostal muscle strain is certainly related to (1) higher seat velocity at the catch and (2) higher handle velocity at the finish, both of which increase your stroking power--enormously.

No, I don't have a lot of layback now. At the finish, I have learned to use my back as a brace for my arms, rather than continuing to use it as a lever.

I am not sure about your garbled explanation of the difficulty. The increased stress on the intercostals comes from doing more work (more easily) at both the catch and the finish. The injury is a result of trying to learn to do this and probably pushing my learning curve a little too quickly.

No, it doesn't have to do with a lot of power coming from the arms vs. the legs. As I mentioned a while ago, right around 70% of the power of my stroke now comes from my legs. This is entirely normal and proper.

I didn't _used_ to row this way, but I do now.

ranger

[ranger]

My intercostals are still sensitive and weak, although no longer actively painful, thank goodness.

So I'll just keep riding my bike instead of rowing, until they feel better.

So it goes.

Door County is a gorgeous place for bike riding.

The roads are excellent.

The main roads all have bike lanes.

There are many back roads.

The weather is beautiful right now.

And the scenery is stunning, with many cliffs looking out over the big lake and many roads right along the lake.

ranger

[ranger]

Nice 30-mile bike ride.

Beautiful morning.

70 degrees F.

Blinding sun, light west wind.

The bike riding is great for my intercostals.

Some light stretching, with occasional pressure.

Instead of getting a new bike, I had my old bike (a Kronos Giant) renovated.

Nice ride, despite the age of the bike (over 15 years old now, I suspect).

ranger

[ranger]

Still resting my intercostals.

Happy with their healing.

They feel better and better every day.

I should be back rowing in a few days.

Nice 2.5 hour, 42.5-mile bike ride before breakfast, at a leisurely 16 mph, just to keep active while I am healing.

Not working very hard, not even top-end UT2 (HR 120 bpm?), barely sweating.

Gorgeous morning here in Door County, WI.

Storms blew through last night but are now gone.

Brilliant sun.

Clear blue skies.

Delightfully cool northern breeze blowing in off the big lake.

68 degrees F.

The water in the big lake has now warmed up here on the Green Bay side of the Door.

Must be in the high 60s F., perhaps even 70 F.

Great swimming.

Refreshing.

ranger

[Citroen]

Nice 2.5 hour, 42.5-mile bike ride before breakfast, at a leisurely 16 mph, just to keep active while I am healing.

Er, that's 17mph and that's not gentle/leisurely in my books.
You probably managed about 38 miles at 15mph. But, of course, distances are not measured using statute miles in Rangerland in the same way that your times are not measured against the vibration of a caesium atom.

[ranger]

Nice 2.5 hour, 42.5-mile bike ride before breakfast, at a leisurely 16 mph, just to keep active while I am healing.

Er, that's 17mph and that's not gentle/leisurely in my books.
You probably managed about 38 miles at 15mph. But, of course, distances are not measured using statute miles in Rangerland in the same way that your times are not measured against the vibration of a caesium atom.

O.K.

More exactly, according to my bike computer, I rode 42.49 miles in 2:42:05.

That's 16.3 MPH

Sure, it was leisurely.

As I said, I wasn't even sweating.

I don't ride with a water bottle and I didn't even get thirsty, even though I rode for almost three hours.

So I wasn't losing much water at all.

I suspect that my HR was well below top-end UT2.

120 bpm?

I _never_ work that easily OTErg or OTW.

My target HR for a FM OTErg is 155 bpm, so lately, when I am rowing OTErg, I tend to work in and around that.

My HR is consistently _higher_ when I row OTW than it is when I row OTErg.

I guess I don't have enough experience as a biker to know how to work hard for long periods in a relaxed way.

On the flat, when I am riding my bike in a relaxed way, I go about 20 spm, but I am not working very hard.

ranger

[snowleopard]

Nice 2.5 hour, 42.5-mile bike ride

I rode 42.49 miles in 2:42:05.

Nice bit of rounding there ranger. So actually less than three minutes shy of two and three-quarter hours

Doubtless you apply the same accuracy to your erg reporting.

[JimR]

Nice 2.5 hour, 42.5-mile bike ride

I rode 42.49 miles in 2:42:05.

Nice bit of rounding there ranger. So actually less than three minutes shy of two and three-quarter hours

Doubtless you apply the same accuracy to your erg reporting.

We saw an example of this rounding on the "I own two homes worth one million dollars" postings. It turned out one was not worth 500K (Ann Arbor) and this other wasn't really his (the family cottage mom left for the kids).

But why let a few details get in the way of looking like the big man on campus?!

JimR

[Citroen]

More exactly, according to my bike computer, I rode 42.49 miles in 2:42:05.

When did you calibrate that? It's bound to be wrong, it was wrong last time you reported your pedalless cycling.

[whp4]

More exactly, according to my bike computer, I rode 42.49 miles in 2:42:05.

When did you calibrate that? It's bound to be wrong, it was wrong last time you reported your pedalless cycling.

It's bound to be wrong after calibration, too. Ranger correctly follow directions or use technology more complicated than a flashlight? Yeah, right! I understand he regularly sat backwards on the erg until he saw Caviston using it

[Steve G]

Rich
Use your Garmin, more accurate than bike computer, BTW I would class 16 mph over 40 miles as a steady ride, probably around 100 AHR for me, here is a recent 35 miler with HR average 106, older rides have no HR
http://connect.garmin.com/activity/86995082

At least I post proof Rich!

Steve

[Rocket Roy]

Is anyone over here going to attempt to break it?

It stands at 6.42.5 done by Brian Bailey.

I am now training with PaulS with the sole aim to break the WR at Boston next year.

I had taken 3 years out to ride my bike, now I'm back, been back 5 weeks now.