Ranger's training thread

General discussion on Training. How to get better on your erg, how to use your erg to get better at another sport, or anything else about improving your abilities.
ben990
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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by ben990 » June 15th, 2011, 8:12 am

ranger wrote:Another beautiful day up here in Door County, WI.

Stiff wind from the south.

12K OTErg before breakfast.

I'll get out OTW later in the day.

I am getting beautifully stable, efficient distance rowing now at 12 SPI, 24-30 spm, OTErg.

So, give or take a bit, I am rowing right at my targets:

24 spm FM @ 1:46
25 spm HM @ 1:45
26 spm 60min @ 1:44
27 spm 10K @ 1:42
28 spm 30min 1:41
29 spm 6K 1:40
30 spm 5K 1:39

I'll need to hit all of these distance targets to pull 1:34/6:16 for 2K.

12 SPI is not rowing perfectly, but it is pretty darn good for an old lightweight like me, especially for distance rowing.

Delighted with that.

1:34/6:16 for 2K is 12 SPI @ 35 spm.

ranger
And it continues as always.

Image
Rich Cureton M 60 hwt 5'11" 180 lbs. 7:02.3 (lwt) 2K

ranger
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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by ranger » June 15th, 2011, 8:45 am

A FM just tests what work you are comfortable with getting done on each stroke cycle, given your current technique.

If you are a lightweight and you are comfortable pulling 8 SPI, you are probably missing up to half of the twenty technical issues I listed the other day.

If you corrected these technical problems, you could get over 50% more work done in a comfortable way on each stroke cycle.

The technical points I listed were these:

(1) Get good length. Get all the way to shins vertical at the catch. The front of your seat should be only six inches from front stops when you fire off with your legs.

(2) Keep your hips/back forward at a good angle when you fire off with your legs. Hold that angle until your legs are done. At this point, the handle should be over your feet.

(3) Get your weight securely up on the balls of your feet at the catch, driving with your quads. Do _not_ take the catch with your heels and hams.

(4) Relax your shoulders at the catch.

(5) Relax your core at the catch.

(6) After about .1 seconds set your heels and stand up on the footplate, flattening your legs out with your hams. As in (2), at this point, the handle should be over your feet.

(7) Open your hips and swing your back with your core.

(8) While you are swinging your back, roll back up onto the balls of your feet and drive down on the footplate with the front of your foot using your calves.

(9) Keep your shoulders relaxed even though you have engaged your core, back, and calves.

(10) Pull through with your arms into your chest.

(11) Keep your elbows level as you pull the handle into your chest.

(11) Get a substantial lean with your back at the finish.

(12) Keep in good contact with the footplate at the finish. Point your toes and push the footplate away from you by digging in with your toes.

(13) Recover your arms as quickly as they finish.

(14) When you recover your arms, sit up tall and push the handle down toward your knees.

(15) Keep your knees flat on the rail until the handle sweeps past them.

(16) Recover your back as quick and fully as you did when you engaged it in the drive, returning to shins vertical (Prep Position). As in (2) and (6), at this point the handle should be over your feet, legs flat on the rail.

(17) The movements from (1) to (16) should be _very_ fast, 3/8 of the stroke cycle, at the most. If you count "And-ONE-and-TWO-and-THREE-and-FOUR" as you do the stroke cycle as a whole, execute the movements from (1) to (16) in the first three pulses of this counting/beating: "And-ONE-and."

(18) Set you heels firmly when as you get into prep position.

(19) Break your knees and move the seat slowly toward the catch.

(20) As you do this, roll your weight slowly from your heels to the balls of your feet.

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

ben990
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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by ben990 » June 15th, 2011, 8:51 am

(21) Lie about the results of your current workouts.
Rich Cureton M 60 hwt 5'11" 180 lbs. 7:02.3 (lwt) 2K

ranger
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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by ranger » June 15th, 2011, 9:17 am

ben990 wrote:(21) Lie about the results of your current workouts.
"Results" of workouts?

I don't understand.

The best "result" from a good workout is to learn something about rowing, so that you have the potential of getting better.

Workouts aren't a race, and good training in rowing isn't about fitness at all.

If you just want to get fit, cross-train.

Bike, swim, run, skip, step, skate, ski, etc.

Don't get fit by rowing badly, over and over, as hard as you can.

That just insures that you will never learn to row and therefore never be any good as a rower.

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by nharrigan » June 15th, 2011, 9:29 am

ranger wrote:Another beautiful day up here in Door County, WI.

Stiff wind from the south.

12K OTErg before breakfast.

I'll get out OTW later in the day.

I am getting beautifully stable, efficient distance rowing now at 12 SPI, 24-30 spm, OTErg.

So, give or take a bit, I am rowing right at my targets:

24 spm FM @ 1:46
25 spm HM @ 1:45
26 spm 60min @ 1:44
27 spm 10K @ 1:42
28 spm 30min 1:41
29 spm 6K 1:40
30 spm 5K 1:39

I'll need to hit all of these distance targets to pull 1:34/6:16 for 2K.

12 SPI is not rowing perfectly, but it is pretty darn good for an old lightweight like me, especially for distance rowing.

Delighted with that.

1:34/6:16 for 2K is 12 SPI @ 35 spm.

ranger
The water is usually better in the early am, especially on an open body of water like a lake. Have you ever considered rowing in the morning and erging later? B)
1968 78kg 186cm

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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by PaulH » June 15th, 2011, 9:43 am

ranger wrote:
ben990 wrote:(21) Lie about the results of your current workouts.
"Results" of workouts?

I don't understand.

The best "result" from a good workout is to learn something about rowing, so that you have the potential of getting better.

Workouts aren't a race, and good training in rowing isn't about fitness at all.

If you just want to get fit, cross-train.

Bike, swim, run, skip, step, skate, ski, etc.

Don't get fit by rowing badly, over and over, as hard as you can.

That just insures that you will never learn to row and therefore never be any good as a rower.

ranger
But given that you've mastered your stroke, and your fitness is maximal, the only result left is to go further, faster or easier in a given session. You report mainly that things are getting easier, and every so often you report faster, and yet that's been going on for so long now you should be moving at near light speed with zero effort. And yet you're not. Hence rule 21.

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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by aharmer » June 15th, 2011, 10:41 am

The entire thread should be renamed "Rule 21".

As usual, you ignored my request for information about a possible FM date or how far you've gone nonstop at 1:48 (now 1:46 apparently). Any comment here? See, you claim to be lengthening the distance you do each day until you reach Fm at 1:48. The problem is that you can't prove you can even do 5k at 1:48 without stopping to rest (analyze your technique as you put it). So it's been 5 years of perfect training and you can't do 5k at 1:48. At this rate you will completely annihilate the 100+ wr's when you finally attempt your first FM. I'm excited for the big day, hopefully I'm still alive.

As usual, you reserve the right to prove me wrong and show the board you can do 5k at 1:48 without stopping to analyze your technique.

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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by leadville » June 15th, 2011, 12:28 pm

rangerboy - fourth time I've asked this - you implied you were going to OKC for master's nationals - well, are you going?

what's it gonna be, rangerboy, another DNEE (Did Not Even Enter)?

Given your self-reported ability to row sub 1:50, coupled with the straight shot and buoyed course, you should be salivating at the chance to strut your stuff, shut all of us nay-sayers up, and perhaps even set a new WR in the process?

maybe EE will be there and you can compare erg scores and discuss training regimens and technique!

whoa there, don't start hyperventilating!
Returned to sculling after an extended absence; National Champion 2010, 2011 D Ltwt 1x, PB 2k 7:04.5 @ 2010 Crash-b

ben990
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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by ben990 » June 15th, 2011, 1:22 pm

leadville wrote:rangerboy - fourth time I've asked this - you implied you were going to OKC for master's nationals - well, are you going?

what's it gonna be, rangerboy, another DNEE (Did Not Even Enter)?

Given your self-reported ability to row sub 1:50, coupled with the straight shot and buoyed course, you should be salivating at the chance to strut your stuff, shut all of us nay-sayers up, and perhaps even set a new WR in the process?

maybe EE will be there and you can compare erg scores and discuss training regimens and technique!

whoa there, don't start hyperventilating!
"EE?! Boom goes the Dynamite!", yells ranger, excitedly.
Rich Cureton M 60 hwt 5'11" 180 lbs. 7:02.3 (lwt) 2K

ranger
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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by ranger » June 15th, 2011, 2:09 pm

leadville wrote:Given your self-reported ability to row sub 1:50, coupled with the straight shot and buoyed course, you should be salivating at the chance to strut your stuff, shut all of us nay-sayers up, and perhaps even set a new WR in the process?
WR?

In OTW rowing?

Are there such things?

What is the fastest 1K OTW by a 60s rower?

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by ranger » June 15th, 2011, 2:13 pm

Paul H wrote:But given that you've mastered your stroke, and your fitness is maximal, the only result left is to go further, faster or easier in a given session. You report mainly that things are getting easier, and every so often you report faster, and yet that's been going on for so long now you should be moving at near light speed with zero effort.
Yes, exactly.

That's just how it felt this morning.

When you settle into to completely, a FM is really just a bunch of UT2 rowing.

For me, now, this UT2 rowing is 1:46 @ 24 spm (12 SPI).

The major challenge is technical:

taking consistently good strokes.

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by ranger » June 15th, 2011, 2:23 pm

aharmer wrote:As usual, you ignored my request for information about a possible FM date
I am not interested in dates.

I'm interested in rowing.

When I take consistently good strokes for 2.5 hours @ 24 spm, I'll do a FM @ 1:46.

I don't have any problem with this physiologically.

The challenge is technical.

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by Citroen » June 15th, 2011, 2:58 pm

ranger wrote: When I take consistently good strokes for 2.5 hours @ 24 spm, I'll do a FM @ 1:46.
Gentlemen, not only is this a day to watch the lunar eclipse (cloudy skies permitting), it's also a day to celebrate another momentus occasion.

Our hero appears to have declared a new virtual personal best time.

There we have it: a virtual FM in 2hrs 30 @ 1:46.6.

If he ever turns that into a real FM I'll be down the gym with a bag of french fries, a knife, a fork, salt, pepper and bottle of worcestershire sauce ready to eat a Concept2 seat pad with all the trimmings. I think it's safe to say that supper won't ever be eaten.

ranger
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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by ranger » June 15th, 2011, 3:19 pm

Contrary to popular opinion (it seems), it is not at all easy to take consistently good strokes.

For instance, no veteran (i.e., 50+ years old) has ever rowed well.

Over 60min, most 60s veterans miss it by close to a mile (eight seconds per 500m, 65 watts, etc.).

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by ranger » June 15th, 2011, 3:27 pm

If you row badly, you can only go faster by pulling harder, which has a physiological cost.

Technical advances are physiologically "free."

You get faster with no extra physiological cost.

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

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