Why am I so slow at a low DF?

[luckylindy]

After much advice on this forum, I lowered the DF for all of my training from ~170 to ~130. The first obvious change was that my distance training pace slowed down (from ~1:56/500 to ~2:02), which the folks here said would turn around after time. It has - I'm back to training at ~1:56-1:58 or so for 5-10k.

However, my max speed (LP) at a DF of 130 is still CONSIDERABLY slower than before. All out, I can pull ~1:35 at a DF of 130, vs. somewhere around 1:23 at a DF of 170. What's strange is that my LP at a DF of 130 has gotten worse since I started training at the lower DF ... from ~1:30 on day 1 to 1:35 now (even though I'm a good bit stronger from erging and lifting).

My concern is that my LP right now represents a barrier to improving. Naive question ... would it make sense to switch back to a high DF to work on strength/power?

[gregory.cook]

Curious... when rowing at 1:56 with a DF of 130, what is your stroke rate?

[luckylindy]

Regardless of DF, I feel most natural at ~25 spm for anything over 2k ... so most of my rowing is between 22 and 26 for 1:56/500 rowing.

I can do 1:35 at a 32spm but cannot go faster with a higher rating ... even at 40 spm I'm still pulling a 1:35. I can hold that 1:35 for a few hundred meters without much issue (I'm assuming more if I tried), but cannot get a single 1:34 in no matter how hard I pull. It doesn't feel hard, I just feel like I can't pull any faster.

At a 170+ DF, I'll pull about 1:30 at 32spm, but my splits will decrease as my rate increases (to ~40spm). With a DF of 170 (or higher), I cannot pull a 1:21 more than a few pulls. It feels hard. This seems to make sense ... an LP shouldn't be something that can be maintained for very long. Unlike my low DF workouts, I feel like I'm strength/power limited more than speed limited.

[jamesg]

The lower DF leads to more slack at the catch, with loss of length and of work per stroke. You can compensate for this by getting well forward, but without rushing there.

[sheehc]

Ditto what James said. Biggest issue is the loss of a firm catch. To compensate you can get a bit more length but you also need the legs to be much, much faster and you need the upper body set and prepared to connect the legs to the handle. If you want to improve the LP, don't raise the DF back up. Just focus on your technique and becoming more efficient at the current DF. I've recommended it many times before and will recommend it again, spend a little time during each warm up progressing from legs only rowing, to legs and body, to full strokes. It isolates the front end and helps teach a smooth, continued acceleration through the finish. For the sake of comparison, run that drill at a higher DF (be careful with your back on legs only, don't go hard) to remember what the connection feels like at the front end. Then drop the DF back down and search for that same feeling.

[bloomp]

It definitely sounds like an issue with leg drive. As Sheehc says, you really must emphasize a quick leg drive as you can't muscle through with the upper body as you can with a high DF.

Think about this, many people 'drive' with the legs and just extend them hard. This typically involves pushing off the balls of the feet and not connecting with the heel. Two mistakes there. First, you need to be sure your heel is clicking down onto the plate before you really initiate the drive. A failure to do so means you do not engage many of the gluteal muscles in the leg drive and therefore a) waste possible power and b) do not have all the muscles of the hip/groin/lower back engaged for swinging through with the rest of the stroke. The other mistake comes from how the legs are driving. You can extend the legs and try to get a good push backwards, but that final great amount of power comes from almost throwing the knees down. This is best seen in OTW rowing, but it still applies to erging.

So think about getting the heels down and really through the leg drive throwing the legs down instead of trying to muscle through with your back. On my team I see many guys that do just the opposite - waiting until they engage their torso to begin to really initiate the drive. If you want to 'practice' this, do a simple drill. Start at the catch and row the first 6" of the stroke (legs only). Take 10 strokes like that then do 10 with full leg drive (the torso still leaning forward). You should see a huge difference in your split if your legs are really driving properly. Then take 10 with the back (no arms) and then add the arms for 10.

http://fisa.feedroom.com/?fr_story=63e8 ... 626e&rf=bm

Watch the W8+ video and look at the USA crew. The women there have a beautiful leg drive and can really get the boat moving quickly without having to throw their back around and worry about having a strong finish (of course they do, but many womens crews are smart in focusing on the strongest part of the stroke - the legs - instead of bothering with the upper body). You'll see how they don't just extend, their legs simply DISAPPEAR down into the boat. That's the right kind of leg drive.

[luckylindy]

http://fisa.feedroom.com/?fr_story=63e8 ... 626e&rf=bm

Watch the W8+ video and look at the USA crew. The women there have a beautiful leg drive and can really get the boat moving quickly without having to throw their back around and worry about having a strong finish (of course they do, but many womens crews are smart in focusing on the strongest part of the stroke - the legs - instead of bothering with the upper body). You'll see how they don't just extend, their legs simply DISAPPEAR down into the boat. That's the right kind of leg drive.

I agree, they appear to be using a lot of leg drive. But if I watch the "Lake Karapiro - M2x Final", the NZ team seems to be using far more upper body and back (particularly towards the end when they win).

It just seems strange that a 1:35 @ 170+ DF would seem relatively moderate to me, while @ 120-130DF it's my LP. I haven't been rowing as much lately due to work obligations, so maybe I just need to get focused and see what happens at a lower DF.

[bloomp]

Well you aren't exactly telling us how far you're rowing? Of course it will feel 'easier' to reach a 1:35 with more inertia, but you won't be holding that over a long distance. That's why for 100m trials or watt tests, people put the damper up very high. Over short distances you simply can't spin the flywheel enough at lower drag factors to reach the same pace as at a high DF. But over a long distance keeping the DF high will make it very easy for you to injure yourself and put much more of the demands on your back than on your legs.

RE: The NZ double, sculling technique is slightly different as the load on your muscles is higher. You have about 1.5 times the wetted blade area of a sweep oarsman (two blades that add to a larger size than a sweep blade), so you need to initiate with the torso earlier in order to 'swing' the drive from catch to finish. I was using the women's crew to show you what you might want to emphasize more to get faster at a low DF - not how to row OTW in one particular way.

[luckylindy]

Well you aren't exactly telling us how far you're rowing? Of course it will feel 'easier' to reach a 1:35 with more inertia, but you won't be holding that over a long distance. That's why for 100m trials or watt tests, people put the damper up very high. Over short distances you simply can't spin the flywheel enough at lower drag factors to reach the same pace as at a high DF. But over a long distance keeping the DF high will make it very easy for you to injure yourself and put much more of the demands on your back than on your legs.

I was rowing up to 15k at a DF of 170+. It definitely put more load on my back muscles, and I had to ease off rowing for a few days from overuse. But my times were still far better.

For example, my last 5k PB at 170+ (19:10) was set after starting with a first 2k of 8:20 (I started thinking I was going to do a slow 15k and changed my mind). Even after pulling 1:48s for the remaining 3k, I felt like it wasn't all out, and did not have trouble walking or anything afterward. However, after switching to a DF of ~130, I couldn't even break 20:00 in the 5k, and it took a couple months to finally break the 19:10 set earlier. The first time I broke 19:10 at a DF of 120-130, I couldn't walk for ~5 minutes - it was 100% all out.

Thanks for all the feedback - that's interesting about the difference in technique about the sculling and sweep (I've never rowed OTW, just OTE). BTW, if you were training for OTW sculling, vs. sweep, would you do anything differently on the erg? I will likely never row sweep, but hope to scull someday ...

[bloomp]

Unfortunately I don't see too many training-related posts, in the WTHYDT thread but from what I have read you need to simply spend more time on the erg. Your most recent 5k was done after being sick and not having trained much - which makes me think that just getting meters in and using proper technique would have the biggest benefit for you. You are only 175 pounds, nowhere near the size needed to benefit so much from a high drag factor. Your height also suggests that you may be out of sequence with the leg drive (and you also came into rowing worried that your arms were too weak, so again I'm not sure how you find it that much easier to row at a higher DF).

If you would post a video of your form, we could offer a lot better feedback. It honestly just sounds like something is out of sequence. To be unable to pull the same split over distance pieces at different DFs is unusual - unless you're rowing wrong (or you can't keep the rate up).

As for training for sculling/sweep rowing, no you wouldn't alter your erg technique. What works OTE may be similar to what works OTW but you don't have many of the fine technical points to worry about.

[luckylindy]

Unfortunately I don't see too many training-related posts, in the WTHYDT thread but from what I have read you need to simply spend more time on the erg. Your most recent 5k was done after being sick and not having trained much - which makes me think that just getting meters in and using proper technique would have the biggest benefit for you. You are only 175 pounds, nowhere near the size needed to benefit so much from a high drag factor.

Need to update that - I've put on 20 lbs since I started rowing (I've been lifting a lot as well ... so my BF% has remained at ~10%, pretty cool). I'll keep trucking at the lower DF setting and work on technique, and post a video at some point.

[goblin]

130 is still a relatively high drag, but either way, the problem is that your muslces have become accustomed to firing much slower and your task is to train them to fire faster. And everyone pulls better peak power wattage on a max drag setting - in fact (I would argue), that is the only way you should even bother testing your peak power (LP).

To train your legs to fire faster, I would suggest actually doing some of your work each week on an even lower drag factor (like 110).

Incidentally, I tend to always test on a slightly higher drag factor than I train at, though lately I've been training on a dramatically low drag factor (90) because my gym does not maintain their ergs. I can't even get to my 500m PR pace at this drag, nevermind peak power level, but I've been making progress. I test around 115 drag.

[claus hansen]

Interesting reading here.

I usually row at 110 DF. Inspired by this thread I tried to do only legs, then back, then arms today to train power application and sequence.

I was very surprised. I do use the legs quite correctly (I think), but I just could not do any serious work with them alone. I imagined I would see 100+ watt but I could see only half of that...How can that be? They do count for 70-80% of the watt in normal sessions.

I am very shortlegged, 79 cm. crotch to floor, could that be it? Or do I have to train more technique doing 'legs only'?

[luckylindy]

To train your legs to fire faster, I would suggest actually doing some of your work each week on an even lower drag factor (like 110).

This got me thinking - would it make sense to always train with the same form/speed, but vary the DF? For example, for long slow rows, set the DF at 90 or so, while for shorter work set it closer to 200? That way your form and rating could always be the same, but the amount of work to maintain that form would vary greatly.

[sheehc]

I do use the legs quite correctly (I think), but I just could not do any serious work with them alone

1) It's mostly due to the length of the stroke (you are only using your legs after all) which will severely limit the wattage you can attain. As you get stronger and better, the wattage goes up, but this drill is not about max wattage. It's about learning how to connect at maybe 70% pressure (enough to feel the connection and that's all). You can do a few strokes at a higher pressure to test that you hold the connection as speed increases, however this is not a max wattage drill.

2) Many people will decelerate as the legs go down to prevent tension on the back or falling off the seat. That's fine since the point of legs only is the first few inches anyhow.

When you add the body in, the stroke is lengthened and the legs will continue to accelerate for a longer period of time (assuming your abs can take the shock of stopping short) thus increasing wattage. Once the arms add in, the watts will jump again mostly due to length of stroke and not having to stop short. It should feel like the legs are driving the stroke with the upper body providing length and a continuation of what the legs started.

That way your form and rating could always be the same, but the amount of work to maintain that form would vary greatly.

I'm confused by what you are saying in this post. Are you suggesting that for a 90' piece you use 90 DF but for a 10k you use 200 DF? Or are you saying you would use 90 DF for SS and 200 DF for intervals?