Question for Bob S

[rufierowing]

I've heard you talk about your skeletal system deteriorating. Curious as to exactly what you mean. Most middle aged people who don't train probably couldn't get close to 8:00 for a 2K like you. That said, you must be getting around like the average middle age person.

Do you think it would have helped more if you participated in more strength training at a younger age.

You're pretty much on a level by yourself--pretty amazing.

Dan

[Bob S.]

I've heard you talk about your skeletal system deteriorating. Curious as to exactly what you mean. Most middle aged people who don't train probably couldn't get close to 8:00 for a 2K like you. That said, you must be getting around like the average middle age person.

Do you think it would have helped more if you participated in more strength training at a younger age.

You're pretty much on a level by yourself--pretty amazing.

Dan

Some specific problems are:
1) Arthritis in my knuckles that started in my early thirties, but has not persisted.
2) A lack of cartilage in my right knee. This can be painful at times and it made me cut short the trip that I did two and a half years ago. It was to have been about 520 miles, but I had occasional buckling of that knee. Then on one occasion when it buckled. I lurched out on to the road trying to catch myself. There was no traffic at the time, but it was a wake-up call that it was time to cut the trip short, even though there was only 80 miles left. The left knee is also low on cartilage, but not as bad as the right.
3) My fifth lumbar disc is essentially non-functional.
4) I have been somewhat kyphotic as long as I can remember, even in my early teens, although it did not seem to interfere with my college rowing career. Nowadays, with an osteoporosis index of minus 2.5, I am getting to be a regular Quasimodo.
5) About 15 years ago, I had to give up hands flat on the floor pushups because of pain in my left thumb. I found that if I used the small bars designed for pushups, I could do them without any pain. In recent years I have continued to do them using the bars and there is no problem.

As far as strength training is concerned, I have done it off and on rather sporadically, starting when I was 20 and stationed at an Army Air Force base that had a good weight room. I was never sure that I was really getting any benefit from it. There were a couple of times when I had minor injuries that forced me to quit until I recovered. Considering the current condition of my knees, I regret all those deep knee bends with a heavy weight across my shoulders that made my spine feel like a piece of spaghetti. Also the running up and down stairs two at a time and standing up on the pedals of a bike instead of shifting to a lower gear. You can strengthen the muscles by making them work hard, but you have to baby the ligaments, especially in the knees.

I don’t think that this is what you want to hear, but that is how it is - for me at least.

Bob S.

[rufierowing]

Whatever you've done throughout the years it must have been right. An 8:00 2K at your age is amazing especially when I compare you to the 80+ year olds I'm around.

Thanks for your reply Bob

Dan

[Bob S.]

Whatever you've done throughout the years it must have been right. An 8:00 2K at your age is amazing especially when I compare you to the 80+ year olds I'm around.

Thanks for your reply Bob

Dan

A slight correction here, Dan. It has been about three years since I could get 8:00 and under - my recent WRs for the 85-89 bracket were 8:15.3 as a HWt and 8:13.6 as a LWT. While I may have been the first octogenarian to break 8:00 (7:54.9 at age 81), there are now at least 4 others who have done it and one of them got a 7:42. In the next 2-4 seasons one or more of them will likely be breaking the 85+ WRs.

Bob S.

[NELSON]

I have to add my 2 cents. Bob, all of us pre-80+ can only continue to work and then hope we can be where you,and the other 80+ role models, reside in the not to distance future. The bar is set high, thanks for showing us the way.

[wgr]

I've heard you talk about your skeletal system deteriorating. Curious as to exactly what you mean. Most middle aged people who don't train probably couldn't get close to 8:00 for a 2K like you. That said, you must be getting around like the average middle age person.

Do you think it would have helped more if you participated in more strength training at a younger age.

You're pretty much on a level by yourself--pretty amazing.

Dan

Some specific problems are:
1) Arthritis in my knuckles that started in my early thirties, but has not persisted.
2) A lack of cartilage in my right knee. This can be painful at times and it made me cut short the trip that I did two and a half years ago. It was to have been about 520 miles, but I had occasional buckling of that knee. Then on one occasion when it buckled. I lurched out on to the road trying to catch myself. There was no traffic at the time, but it was a wake-up call that it was time to cut the trip short, even though there was only 80 miles left. The left knee is also low on cartilage, but not as bad as the right.
3) My fifth lumbar disc is essentially non-functional.
4) I have been somewhat kyphotic as long as I can remember, even in my early teens, although it did not seem to interfere with my college rowing career. Nowadays, with an osteoporosis index of minus 2.5, I am getting to be a regular Quasimodo.
5) About 15 years ago, I had to give up hands flat on the floor pushups because of pain in my left thumb. I found that if I used the small bars designed for pushups, I could do them without any pain. In recent years I have continued to do them using the bars and there is no problem.

As far as strength training is concerned, I have done it off and on rather sporadically, starting when I was 20 and stationed at an Army Air Force base that had a good weight room. I was never sure that I was really getting any benefit from it. There were a couple of times when I had minor injuries that forced me to quit until I recovered. Considering the current condition of my knees, I regret all those deep knee bends with a heavy weight across my shoulders that made my spine feel like a piece of spaghetti. Also the running up and down stairs two at a time and standing up on the pedals of a bike instead of shifting to a lower gear. You can strengthen the muscles by making them work hard, but you have to baby the ligaments, especially in the knees.

I don’t think that this is what you want to hear, but that is how it is - for me at least.

Bob S.

Bob,

Your accomplishments are quite remarkable given the condition of your major body parts. I don't have any of the impediments you do, am 18 years younger, and struggle to match your times. You demonstrate a toughness even greater than your physical strengths.

You mention you have osteoporosis, as do I, and am wondering if you do anthing special for it, like take extra calcium, vitamin D or other supplements. The reason I ask is that indoor rowing is supposed to be good for bone health, according to the monograph at http://concept2.co.uk/assets/docs/indoo ... orosis.pdf . I was hoping that rowing would be helpful in controling this problem. Do you think that rowing has been improving your bone mass density over time?

Walter

[Bob S.]

You demonstrate a toughness even greater than your physical strengths.

There are some that would just use the words "stubborn old so-and-so."

You mention you have osteoporosis, as do I, and am wondering if you do anthing special for it, like take extra calcium, vitamin D or other supplements. The reason I ask is that indoor rowing is supposed to be good for bone health, according to the monograph at http://concept2.co.uk/assets/docs/indoo ... orosis.pdf . I was hoping that rowing would be helpful in controling this problem. Do you think that rowing has been improving your bone mass density over time?
Walter

When I had my first bone density scan, many years ago by older methods, I got a thumbs up on it but no numbers mentioned. Much more recently, I had one of the newer tests, which uses an apparatus resembling an MRI in appearance and operation. I was told that the results of that showed that I had an index (if that is the word) of close to minus 2.5 the osteoporosis borderline and fosamax was prescribed. I hate that stuff for a couple of reasons. First, it is packaged in such a way that it is a nuisance to try to get it out. Second, there are some eating and positional restrictions that are a pain in the butt. But the major problem turned up when I had to have some periodontal work done to restore a bit of jawbone. A little internet research suggested that the jawbone loss might have been a result of the use of fosamax. That caveat is not in the usual information given out with the drug and my physician was surprised when I discussed it with him. But he immediately called a pharmacist buddy of his and asked him about it. The pharmacist confirmed that it was a problem and my physician agreed that I should stop the use of it immediately.

Meanwhile, a second bone density scan, using the newer technique, showed that I was a bit over the - 2.5 line and that I should take a high potency, once a month vitamin D pill - which I have done since then. On my own, I have also been using a calcium supplement. It is in the form of calcium citrate, which I have been advised is the form in which it is best absorbed. The pills have 315 mg of calcium each and I take 3 a day. I also try to get plenty of green, leafy vegetables in my food, since they are one of the best calcium sources. As has been pointed out, the usual source of milk is cows, and their only natural source of calcium is from grass.

I finally asked what the - 2.5 meant and was told that I was 2.5 standard deviations below normal. That shocked the hell out of me until I found out that the "normal" didn't mean normal for my age, but was based on a male in his thirties. I just Googled it and found out that it is called a T-score and here is the Wiki definition:

The T-score is a comparison of a patient's BMD to that of a healthy thirty-year-old of the same sex and ethnicity.

So I am still in the dark on the significance of it, since I don't know what would be a normal T-score for a male at 85 years of age.

Whether rowing helps or not, I have no idea. I had been doing a fair amount of (light) weight work a while back, but have been off of it for a year or so. I also get in some hiking once in a while, but my recent 10 day back pack (see the sorry, soggy saga thread) is the only thing I have done in recent months.

Bob S.

[Bob S.]

On my own, I have also been using a calcium supplement. It is in the form of calcium citrate, which I have been advised is the form in which it is best absorbed. The pills have 315 mg of calcium each and I take 3 a day. I also try to get plenty of green, leafy vegetables in my food, since they are one of the best calcium sources. As has been pointed out, the usual source of milk is cows, and their only natural source of calcium is from grass.
Bob S.

After I sent this I realized that I had forgotten one item. Many people use milk a a major calcium source, and I used to consume quite a bit of it. But eventually my lactase supply got to be low enough that I was developing a fair amount of lactose intolerance. I have pretty much cut out the use of plain milk, but consume quite a bit of non-fat yogurt, in which the micro-organisms had already done the job of hydrolyzing the lactose. Cheese another source. I like it, but the kinds that I like are not exactly non-fat or even low fat, but I don't have a weight problem, so I don't worry about it.

Bob S.

[rufierowing]

Here is a review of a fantastic book which covers the importance of strength training as we age (from a biological perspective). Probably the best book I've read on fitness.

http://cbass.com/YoungerNext.htm

I only lift once per week and feel much stronger as a result. Rowing does a lot of good regarding strength but adding specific strength moments is even better--and I believe leads to a more graceful aging process. But as I said before, whatever Bob is doing regarding fitness is hard to argue. He is no doubt way out in front of his piers.

And by the way-- Clarance Bass ( the person who reviewed the book ) is in my opinion the best resource for how best to age gracefully. His fitness and overall health at his age speak for itself

He is the one that got me into erging

Dan

[wgr]

When I had my first bone density scan, many years ago by older methods, I got a thumbs up on it but no numbers mentioned. Much more recently, I had one of the newer tests, which uses an apparatus resembling an MRI in appearance and operation. I was told that the results of that showed that I had an index (if that is the word) of close to minus 2.5 the osteoporosis borderline and fosamax was prescribed. I hate that stuff for a couple of reasons. First, it is packaged in such a way that it is a nuisance to try to get it out. Second, there are some eating and positional restrictions that are a pain in the butt. But the major problem turned up when I had to have some periodontal work done to restore a bit of jawbone. A little internet research suggested that the jawbone loss might have been a result of the use of fosamax. That caveat is not in the usual information given out with the drug and my physician was surprised when I discussed it with him. But he immediately called a pharmacist buddy of his and asked him about it. The pharmacist confirmed that it was a problem and my physician agreed that I should stop the use of it immediately.

Meanwhile, a second bone density scan, using the newer technique, showed that I was a bit over the - 2.5 line and that I should take a high potency, once a month vitamin D pill - which I have done since then. On my own, I have also been using a calcium supplement. It is in the form of calcium citrate, which I have been advised is the form in which it is best absorbed. The pills have 315 mg of calcium each and I take 3 a day. I also try to get plenty of green, leafy vegetables in my food, since they are one of the best calcium sources. As has been pointed out, the usual source of milk is cows, and their only natural source of calcium is from grass.

I finally asked what the - 2.5 meant and was told that I was 2.5 standard deviations below normal. That shocked the hell out of me until I found out that the "normal" didn't mean normal for my age, but was based on a male in his thirties. I just Googled it and found out that it is called a T-score and here is the Wiki definition:

The T-score is a comparison of a patient's BMD to that of a healthy thirty-year-old of the same sex and ethnicity.

So I am still in the dark on the significance of it, since I don't know what would be a normal T-score for a male at 85 years of age.

Whether rowing helps or not, I have no idea. I had been doing a fair amount of (light) weight work a while back, but have been off of it for a year or so. I also get in some hiking once in a while, but my recent 10 day back pack (see the sorry, soggy saga thread) is the only thing I have done in recent months.

Bob S.

Bob,

Thank you for your detailed reply. It's very useful to get another data point and thank you for your contribution. Sorry for having taken so long to get back to on this. I was waiting for after my session with my endocrinologist to see if he had an opinion on rowing and osteoporosis. I didn't catch him in a good mood as his return from Europe was delayed by volcanic ash. He was also put off when I told him I had stopped taking Actonel, a newer version of Fosamax. When I asked him about rowing and showed him a copy of the research summary, he dismissed it and said rowing was bad because you lean forward you exert undue pressure on your spine. I'm not sure why he said this and he did not elaborate, but in my specific example, my back feels fine. In fact, I had a low grade back ache in the mornings when I woke up and it's gone away since I've been applying myself more vigorously to rowing. The key, I believe, is to maintain good posture during the pull (keep the lower back arced inward). While this is not an expert's opinion, it's what works for me.

Weightlifting is also good for osteoporosis as well as maintaining muscle tone as you grow older. I find that doing squats (4 x 15 at 125 pounds) also keeps my patella (kneecap) pain in check.

With respect to the BMD interpretation, there is a short, excellent discussion focusing on using female BMD scores for males at:

http://aging.wisc.edu/pdfs/9.pdf

Table 1 on page 246) has female and male BMD values and their standard deviations as well as some figures showing these graphically. There is also a discussion on the pros and cons of keeping male and female BMD databases separate. So even if your score puts you on the right side of the bell curve for males of your age, a lower, negative score shows you're more at risk for fractures, absolutely speaking.