Help for beginner

[bobkwan2007]

I'm new to the community. I just got a model C a few weeks back. I run, but due to a foot injury I've had to find other ways to maintain conditioning.

So anyway, a couple of beginner questions for the more experienced folks here:

1) I like to do the longer distances, e.g., 15-20K, cardio-vascularly I am fine, but I find that my butt, just around the end of the tailbone, gets really sore, even blistery. Is this a technique issue, or just something to get used to? Do I need modification on the seat?

2) Are the knees in contact with each other at the beginning of the stroke? Are they apart? If so, how far. Is this a preference thing?

3) On the return stroke, do you return (with your seat) as close as you can to the footrest, so that your knees are bent maximally? Or do you keep a bigger angle with the knees? Are you more prone to knee problems if you return too far?

4) My stroke rate is anywhere between 23-29, depending on what stage of the workout I'm at, but usually toward the higher rate near the end of the workout. Is it more efficient to have low spm but more power per stroke, or higher spm with less power? Is one better than another, or again, is this a personal preference thing?

Thanks for your insights. I used to be a six-days-a-week runner, averaging 80 km/week, and I'd like to do the same with rowing, at least until I can get back to running.

[jliddil]

Regarding sore butt. I have issues with my right sciatic nerve on rows over an hour. Right now I am experimenting with a large folded bath towel with or without bubble wrap inside. Works pretty well JL Rowing sells both a gel and sorbothane pad. And Concept 2 cells a closed cell pad.

On the Concept2 site under Technique watch the video. Film yourself rowing and compare and or post it to youtube for critique. I keep my legs parallel. You only want to go forward to the point where your shins are vertical. beyond that and you lose mechanical efficiency.

You can read all about stroke rate and training. You can certainly jack your heart rate up with a slow SPM if you pull hard (faster 500 m split) The stroke rate depends on what you are trying to achieve. Since you are doing this for fitness rather than trying to improve your 2K race times then just find a SPM that you can maintain for 20K and also maintain the 500M split. You may want to do some HR monitoring to confirm you are getting you HR up.

The Concept2 site also has material on erging cross training for runner. You should be in pretty good shape if you've been running 80K a week

[Bob S.]

1) I like to do the longer distances, e.g., 15-20K, cardio-vascularly I am fine, but I find that my butt, just around the end of the tailbone, gets really sore, even blistery. Is this a technique issue, or just something to get used to? Do I need modification on the seat?

Are you sure that the seat is mounted the right way? Once in a while seats get installed backwards, so the the raised portion is under the tailbone instead of the notch. The open notch of the seat should be in back of you.

Bob S.

[bobkwan2007]

Thanks for your inputs.

The seat is installed properly. I am going to maybe get a gel seat or something like that. Maybe some vasoline to reduce the friction.

[jliddil]

It's not like running where you get your nipples rubbed raw. Rather than vaseline try to find some smooth shorts. Maybe compression shorts if you you don't want to buy rowing shorts. A seam maybe what's getting you. I fyou row for 15-20K you are probably sweating a bit and vaseline is not going to work real well. Use a towel for now as vaseline can also lead to blisters getting infected and not forming a callus. Having been a runner for years I really like the rower for what it does for my upper body. But do what you like. And since you have a foot injury consider rowing strapless. This will help you improve technique and put less stress on the foot.

[jamesg]

BK, your questions all indicate that your posture and technique need to change; problems are always due to bad technique. This can stop you getting fit at all and may lead to injury.

1 Your tail shouldn't even touch the seat. Straighten your back and sit up. Get your weight well forward and onto your feet at the catch by getting hands away and swinging forward before lifting your legs; indeed, do a longish warmup without using the slide at all, i.e arms and swing only in that order, but always with a straight back. Never slouch. Try looking at the ceiling; this gives the right posture.

2 Scullers keep their knees together, presumably because it makes for a firmer connection between body and boat, but if you have a paunch this may be difficult; knees under armpits is I think a reasonable compromise.

3a No, see 1; 3b Yes, at the catch shins vertical and thighs at apx 45°; 3c Yes; and the catch is slow and weak.

4 First we develop an efficient stroke that's within our strength and CV capacity and has plenty of work in it, where Work = Handle Force x Net Stroke Length. Good posture will lengthen your stroke and allow a faster catch, so you can do more work without increasing handle force. This is called learning to row. Then, when you've developed your stroke, you use it, at all ratings. According to your height, you can sweat freely even at rating 20 (say 150-200W or more). At 40 with the same stroke and a lot of training you may reach 2000m.

Knowing your height, weight, age and current output may help in providing real numbers, but anyway if you produce > 2W/kg on long slow pieces you're on the right track.

General points: keep the drag factor low, say 130 max. Keep your feet low too, this helps posture at the catch. Rowing is technical, but on the erg at least, there's only one thing to learn: the stroke. And it's well worth the learning.
This lady knows how:
http://www.britishrowing.org/rowing-stroke

[Blaze]

The issue described is similar to my experience, though your case sounds more severe. After increasing my rowing volume recently, I began to feel discomfort in the tailbone. By going through my motions slowly, I determined that my tailbone was making contact with the seat at layback, in the cutout area previously mentioned. Not that my form is exemplary, but I think my posture is decent enough. Maybe an extra vertebra?

I cut a wedge out of one of those gardener's kneeling pads to match the wedge at the back of the seat. It gives me a bit more clearance, which has helped. It's only been a week, so I'm not sure the problem is solved yet, but things are looking up.

[bobkwan2007]

Thanks for all your inputs. That's a lot of information to digest, but in a good way.

It's not like running where you get your nipples rubbed raw. Rather than vaseline try to find some smooth shorts. Maybe compression shorts if you you don't want to buy rowing shorts. A seam maybe what's getting you. I fyou row for 15-20K you are probably sweating a bit and vaseline is not going to work real well. Use a towel for now as vaseline can also lead to blisters getting infected and not forming a callus. Having been a runner for years I really like the rower for what it does for my upper body. But do what you like. And since you have a foot injury consider rowing strapless. This will help you improve technique and put less stress on the foot.

I adjusted my seating position on the during this morning's workout--I moved further back on the seat, almost to the back edge. This seemed to help as I did not feel it so much in that tender area. Granted the workout was only 50 minutes in duration, and it was the workout of the day from yesterday which was 3, 2, and 1 minute intervals with varying stroke rate.

[bobkwan2007]

BK, your questions all indicate that your posture and technique need to change; problems are always due to bad technique. This can stop you getting fit at all and may lead to injury.

You are probably right, James. I probably do need to make some minor adjustments to my technique, and your point about the back is likely quite relevant. I think this becomes a bigger concern near the end of the longer piece when I am more tired, and hence become more sloppy.

Knowing your height, weight, age and current output may help in providing real numbers, but anyway if you produce > 2W/kg on long slow pieces you're on the right track.

I'm 5'9" (175 cm, I think), 143 lb (65 kg), and 40 yrs. I had been a runner for a number of years, not a particularly fast one, and a recently converted rower. I run a HM around the 1:45 mark, and my 10k time is 43 and change.

I'd rowed a few times before, casually at the gym, but never consistently, and never more than 25 minutes at a time. I did 10k the day after I bought by the machine and clocked 43:20. Then I did 7:47 for the 2K V02 test. And a week later I did a HM at 1:35+.

You mentioned 2W/kg, that would be 130 watts for me. I do not recall what it read, but I will take note of it next time.

And thanks for your insight and wisdom, James.

[bloomp]

Bob,

You sound very enthusiastic about rowing (and the learning relevant to it), which is important. However, if you could post a video of your rowing, myself and other members here would be more than happy to give you pointers on what to fix. With screenshots and lines and arrows and all!

If you are already rowing such great distances, you have a leg up on the other novice. That's the best way to increase fitness, by going 10k+ per session. Keep up the great work!

[El Caballo]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned in all the previous posts is that the seat isn't the optimum shape for most people--it is a compromise that works o.k. for most, but for some it is poor. I never had that kind of problem rowing for 4 years in college (I did have seat issues, but at a different place), but on a Concept 2 ergometer I get open sores in the vicinity of the tailbone. I have never been able to row any significant distance on a bare Concept 2 seat without the kind of trouble you have experienced. I always use a pad with a cutout, similar to what Blaze mentioned in his post. I took an old camping "insolite" (sp?) pad (~1/2" dense foam that doesn't compress much and provides insulation between the ground and sleeping bag) and cut a rectangle about the size of the seat with a hole in the center. One pad used to be enough, but I've been using two most of the time lately (they may be getting old and might be permanently compressed somewhat). I used 3 when I rowed my marathon early last month (they definitely get compressed a bit during a long row).

[bobkwan2007]

A bit of update on my current situation.

I went 90 minute this morning, but was consciously trying to focus on good technique (back straight and tight, smooth transition, etc.), but the thing that help the most was a lower stroke rate. As stated, I normally stroke at 25-26, but I tried to keep it at 20-21, and every time it got up to 22 I'd consciously slow down. This help enormously, as not only could I focus on different aspects of the stroke, but it also cut down on the number of times my butt rocked back and forth on the seat (over 450 fewer times, actually).

Additionally I was able to generate more power with each stroke (avg. 152 W for the piece).

The seat cutout is a good idea. I'd thought of that, actually, when was browsing around the C2 accessories section, but just haven't gotten around to it.

Thanks for all your help.

BTW, James, what does "...you can sweat freely even at rating 20 (say 150-200W or more). At 40 with the same stroke and a lot of training you may reach 2000m," mean? Is rating the stroke rate? What split would you have to do to generate 200W, and how would one maintain this for a long piece? Can't imagine!

[Bob S.]

What split would you have to do to generate 200W

http://www.machars.net/#watts