Weight Lifting and rowing

[yoda]

Tony,

One of the reasons for this forum is to exchange information. Why don't you voice your opinion in your words, not someone else's words. Perhaps by voicing your opinion we can understand why you believe that this particular system is superior to all the others that have been around for years. On the other hand, if you're just looking for an arguement, then just say that and the rest of us can disregard your comments.

Yoda

[anthonysemone]

Yoda,

I'm too old to argue My opinion doesn't matter. Draw your own conclusion on the basis of your own experience, hopefully you'll be successful. Those folks, however, who believe that multiple workouts, involving high intensity, high volume, cross-training, whatever the hell that is, split-routines, etc. well, I wish them luck - they will need it. So, please ignore me.

tony

[badocter]

A study based on kids while I continue to search for a free one on adults:
http://www.jacn.org/cgi/reprint/17/4/333.pdf
In their BMR estimate the multiplier on fat free mass adjustment is 28.4, while that on fat mass adjustment is 3.3. Thus, replacing 1 kg of fat with 1kg of muscle nets 28.4-3.3 = 25.1 kcal/day increase in BMR...

It does seem a bit steep that we would need to put on 6kg of muscle to burn off an extra 150 kcal can of pepsi a day through an increase in base metabolism. However many of us did not get fat overnight and were only slightly in calorie surplus to begin with, so a 7-10% increase in BMR from the extra 6kg of muscle could be the difference between being in calorie surplus and calorie deficit for some people. And that is not including the extra calories burned during the workout sessions themselves.

Obviously these kind of BMR gains do not get you a ticket to eat whatever you want and still lose weight ticket, but it does move the balance in the favorable direction.


LATE EDIT: found one for adults:
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/33/11/2372
American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, Vol 33, 2372-2374
A reanalysis of the factors influencing basal metabolic rate in normal adults
JJ Cunningham

Lean body mass was found to be the single predictor of BMR. A best estimate prediction equation: BMR(cal/day) = 500 + 22 (LBM) is proposed. The previously presumed influences of sex and age are shown to add little to this estimation

[philwhite7]

Thanks for the useful information, badocter.

No harm in a little healthy debate, and I know that just like me and Yoda you are not trying to marginalize Tony for his opinions.

It seems that Yoda, badocter, myself and many others in the C2 community have found that lifting weights promotes weight loss and other health benefits, not to mention strength gains that positively impact our rowing. I'd be interested to know what Pete Marston and some of the other guys who have way more rowing acumen than me think about the latter.

I have nothing else to add here, except to say to everyone, including Tony, good luck to you with whatever training and nutrition plan you implement this year.

[TomR]

Tom Bohrer, former US Olympian and still impressive on the erg, offers an online training plan that includes 2 days/week of lifting or bodyweight circuit. Typical week is 4 rowing/2 strength.

Mike VanBuren, who won the 50 lw Crash-B last year, uses Tom's plan, although I'm not sure how much lifting he does. Stan Vegar, another Crash-B winner, said he followed Tom's training program.

If you want to lose weight, eat less.

[yoda]

Tom,

That last statement of yours should be "If you want to lose weight eat less than your calorie expenditure." A lot of folks think that just eating less is going to help them lose weight, but if they lower their calorie intake too much then the body shuts down.

After being around resistance training for 52 years, I agree wholeheartedly that twice a week training is the way to go. I think I've tried every protocol known to man and now believe that a good twice a week program is plenty to make progress. If set up correctly one can lose weight get make strength gains on a regular basis.

Yoda

[strength athlete]

Hello
I'm new here, but may be able to add something to this topic.

Firstly though I'll say this.
Tony, to say that "if you're goal is weight loss, strength training is irrelevant." is utter nonsense. I don't know where you got your "facts" from. Lean muscle mass increases metabolic rate. An increased metabolic rate burns fat more efficiently(like a furnace, it burns hotter and longer) Thats not a myth. Thats a FACT.
And then to not provide any sort of explanation or proof of your idea, other than the fact that, as you say, you're too old to bother arguing! Do you really expect anybody to take you seriously?

I started rowing 4 yrs ago as cross training, for my main goal of competing here in Canada as a Strongman. I combined rowing, lifting, Crossfit, in a variety of combinations. My rows were mainly 500 to 2000m. Short intense bursts of speed/strength.
I no longer compete, but still lift. My focus has switched over to rowing. I'm starting to row longer distances, more often.
Rowing and lifting can co-exist very easily. A few guidelines should be followed though. As has already been said, use full body, compound lifts. Deadlift, squats, presses, and their variations. Perform lifts on your feet whenever possible. Isolation does not offer the same benefits as compound lifts. Do you want to appear strong or do you want to be strong?

This morning for example I warmed up with an easy 10 min row. Then I did deadlifts, singles up to 555lbs. Then I did a tabata test, for the first time on a rower.

Don't concern yourself necessarily with what you do first. Rowing or Lifting. It can be either one. Think about what your focus is that day. Do you want to do a personal best on the rower, or on a specific lift? If you want to do a new PB on the rower, do that first. Then worry about lifting after. Keep in mind that once your body adapts, you will stop progressing. Everything works for two weeks. Always strive to row faster, longer, lift heavier.

[ToddMR]

Anthony says

If your goal is to lose weight, strength training is irrelevant; sorry about that.

He then references www.bodybyscience.net in support of his assertion.

Well, I followed the link to bodybyscience and read:

To lose bodyfat you’ve got to do the opposite: a very modest calorie reduction done in a disciplined fashion over a long range of time, combined with strength training so all the weight loss is discriminated towards fat loss. That’s our philosophy there.

It seems that Anthony's reference refutes the assertion for which it was offered in support.

[anthonysemone]

i've lost 11 pounds in 5 weeks, all visceral fat as measured by tape and trouser fit, training x1 per week for 8 minutes total time on each protocol i do. Prior to losing the 11#'s I had done the same amount of exercise x1 per week for 10 years. The only difference was diet. so, at least for me, kind sirs, HIT HAD NO DIFFERENTIAL EFFECT ON MY BODY FAT PERCENTAGE. DIET MAKES THE DIFFERENCE. (And it's NOT CALORIES IN/CALORIES OUT for the simple reason that protein, carbs and fat each has a unique hormonal response.)

but, whatever floats your boat.

tony

[anthonysemone]

Anthony says

If your goal is to lose weight, strength training is irrelevant; sorry about that.

He then references www.bodybyscience.net in support of his assertion.

Well, I followed the link to bodybyscience and read:

To lose bodyfat you’ve got to do the opposite: a very modest calorie reduction done in a disciplined fashion over a long range of time, combined with strength training so all the weight loss is discriminated towards fat loss. That’s our philosophy there.

It seems that Anthony's reference refutes the assertion for which it was offered in support.

reference chosen to illustrate the beneficial effects on strength development of short, high intensity work. McGuff is wrong about it's relationship to fat loss.

tony

[gobrian77]

In response to the OP, my personal experience with serious lifting/rowing from the last six months (I'm 43, 6'2", 187lbs and very lean with a waist just under 31"):

I have a model 'D' in my home and do a before-breakfast 12K pretty much every morning (might take one or two mornings off per month) at 5:45am- I hit the gym four days per week at about noon, then do another 6K at about 4:30pm.

I always give my upper-body two days of rest in between work-outs (I used to only need one day- old age is setting in ).

This may sound like a lot, as well as very time-consuming (my schedule allows it, though), but I have wrapped my head around it and don't feel that it stresses me beyond my body's capacity- I generally lift as heavy as I can, with basic compound movements like dumbbell presses and barbell rows, as well as body-weight exercises like pull-ups (full-stretch, none of that half-rep crap ) and dips.

I test myself weekly, and generally find strength increases in at least one muscle group (I have not experienced any decreases, which I would take as a warning sign and cut back or alter my routine).

I've found that the best way to stay lean and control your diet is to do this- find a healthy plan and STICK TO IT, then make small modifications to it to suit your body's needs (this requires a lot of mental discipline- you can allow yourself a day or two off a week to eat whatever you want, though I generally stick to my plan 24/7).

I don't worry at all about carbs as my rowing burns them off- I watch my fat intake and eat five or six small meal throughout the day (when I'm short on time I'll have a protein shake mixed with non-fat milk, which counts as a meal).

Mental discipline is the most important part (imho, of course) of any fitness program- you don't need a trainer if you can motivate yourself.

[Tinus]

6kg of muscle to burn off an extra 150 kcal can of pepsi a day

I think I get an idea of Tony's perspective. If you are a lightweight who is slightly over 72.5kg (like me). Gaining muscle mass, like e.g. 6kg, is silly. Rowing isn't body-building.

One could also do endurance training instead of strength training. Endurance training is not only a much greater loss of energy (>>1000 kcal/hour versus the earlier mentioned 600 kcal/hour) but also an increase in fitness. It may not increase BMR but the increased fitness does allow a person to be more active in daily life and burn more energy. E.g. higher lung capacity allows you to run faster in order to catch the train.

The total daily energy expenditure is not only based on BMR but also on activity level. So, daily expenditure might be increased in multiple ways. It is true that it can be done by strength training. However the research is limited to specific cases and often badly displayed in magazines. Does the research also clearly show how strength training compares to intensive endurance training?

[badocter]

6kg of muscle to burn off an extra 150 kcal can of pepsi a day

I think I get an idea of Tony's perspective. If you are a lightweight who is slightly over 72.5kg (like me). Gaining muscle mass, like e.g. 6kg, is silly. Rowing isn't body-building

That was sort of my point, after digging up the research numbers, they clearly indicate that putting on muscle results in a very modest raise of BMR, not the earth shaking numbers I was expecting. No reasonable person would go through the pain of putting on 6kg of muscle just to raise BMR enough to drink 1 extra can of pepsi a day, or 8kg of muscle to eat one 43g chocolate bar.

As Tony has rightly pointed out, discipline in eating is the key to losing weight. If you exercise hard and don't get the eating under control, you probably won't lose weight because the increase in activity will make you hungrier and end up eating more. Exercise can help, but nutrition must not be ignored.

Take a look at the before and after photos of Bartman in this thread:
http://www.freespiritsrowing.com/forum/ ... 60&start=0
He was a strong rower before taking up bodybuilding just 7 monthes ago and was probably still ~20% bodyfat with little visable muscle definition despite his musculature and workout regime. By comp time he was less than 5% bodyfat and completely ripped. The time elapsed from the "before" to winning his category was 7 monthes. Lots of discipline there on nutrition and workouts, for both him and his wife.

At the end of the day, I train primarily because I like the way it makes me feel, not because of BMR gain. Training also keeps me focused on nutrition as I know the impact it has on performance. I have had a much harder time maintaining eating discipline during periods when I have not been training for an event.

[dwiggin3]

I agree that you should get an hour with a personal trainer to assess your range of motion, body fat, diet and training goals.

The mistake many people make lifting weights is focusing too much on building "beach muscles" by focusing on curls, crunches,
and triceps isolation exercises. There's nothing wrong with these if incorporated into a comprehensive program, but for weight loss, muscle gains and 'functional strength' you're better off sticking to compound exercises that work large muscle groups through a wide range of motion, such as:

Squats, lunges, deadlifts, stepups for your lower body

Pullups (or lat pulldowns), rows (single arm, T-bar or bentover barbell), reverse flies for your back

Dips, pushups, bench press (dumbbell or barbell) for your chest

Plank and side plank, medicine ball exercises (twists, woodchoppers etc) for your core

Shoulder press/military press, shrugs, upright rows for your shoulders

Eat six small meals a day, drink tea and lots of water to stoke your metabolism, go for whole grains over white bread, pasta etc, lots of lean protein, plenty of fruit and veg.

Let us know how you get on.

Very nicely stated.

I've decided to incorporate weights into my winter workout this year - at least concentrate more on weights the first half of winter. However, I've been away from the weight room for several years now and all the machinery looks different. I'm trying to find one that will work my lower back - much like a seated row. The middle back and the sides - esp. that group of muscles that lets you really stretch/rotate into the rigger w/out loosing form would be good too. It doesn't seem like any of the machines I work with do this - at least when I look at the diagrams which are suppose to highlight which muscle areas are being used. Any suggestions? I really need to (1) strengthen and (2) stretch this area.

thoughts?

BTW, I've found my new fave. machine - I call it the "cruncher". Basically, it works the abs. It felt just like the finish of a stroke. I'm excited to see how I progress and hope to see more core strength when I'm back on the water in spring.

[ToddMR]

I've decided to incorporate weights into my winter workout this year - I'm trying to find one that will work my lower back - much like a seated row. Any suggestions? I really need to (1) strengthen and (2) stretch this area.

How about squats and deadlifts. Nothing will do a better job of strengthening your trunk and back.

If you decide to go with free weights, you can also add in power cleans, which is a motion very comparable to the rowing motion that helps build strength and speed.