Questions after my 2nd workout

[cyndiko]

My first rowing session was over the weekend, I loved it! I've been doing a lot of reading online and video watching, and had my 2nd session last night. I have some questions.

My stats: 5' 4" tall, 152 pounds
My full time sport - Running (one year)
average running pace - 11:30 - 12:00 (s.l.o.w.)

I started with the damper level @ 3 based on reccomendations around these forums. After about 10 minutes and my heart rate still at about 115, I checked the drag factor and it was only at about 81? So I messed around with that until finally with the damper at level 8, I had a DF of 111. Is this me or the machine?

I then started a 20 minute row. I rowed 3376 M in 20 mins. S/M was 24 and average pace was 2:58.6.

It took forever for my heart rate to get up there, and the highest it ever got was about 132. I was sweating though.

I still feel like I'm doing something wrong. Every stroke I focused on pushing off with my legs. Well, when I push off with my legs, the seat goes flying back - there is no resistance at all.

I was also very conscious of keeping my back straight, and not bending my elbows until my knees were straight, slowing down on the recovery, leading the recovery with my arms, keeping the legs straight until my hands were past the knees....

In 20 minutes, I had maybe 5 strokes that felt 'right'. I keep reading how rowing is such a great overall workout but I still feel like I'm not working hard enough...even my easy running gets my heart rate to 140.

Any suggestions? When I am pulling, am I supposed to feel some 'force' that I am pulling? When the damper was on 3, I felt like I was just going through a motion with no effort.

Today I feel some tightness in the center of my back and my upper abdomen. And my right knee is a little achey - like I jolted too much in the push off .

I am determined to nail this! I love moving my whole body, but I am still not quite getting something right.

Thanks in advance!

[Bob S.]

I started with the damper level @ 3 based on reccomendations around these forums. After about 10 minutes and my heart rate still at about 115, I checked the drag factor and it was only at about 81? So I messed around with that until finally with the damper at level 8, I had a DF of 111. Is this me or the machine?

The cage must be well clogged with dust if the DF is only 111 at a damper level of 8. I just checked out my own model D. I had the level at 5 (i.e. on the line between the numbers 5 and 6) and my DF is at 114. I am at 4000 ft. of altitude and the air is thin enough here to significantly lower the DF - by as much as 1-2 damper lever settings. Also the temperature in that room is 74 F. When it is in the mid fifties, the air is denser and I sometimes get a DF over 120 at that damper setting. I have had mine for about 2 1/2 years now, so it probably could use its first cleaning, but IMO the gym machine that you are using is long overdue for a cleaning. That is not at all uncommon for gym machines.

Bob S.

[SirWired]

Even at that DF, at that rating (S/M) you should be going much faster than 2:58. You say that when you push off with your legs, the seat goes flying back with no resistance.

Did you mean to say that the handle goes flying back with little resistance? The seat is not supposed to resist your efforts, and the bearings are well-lubricated to ensure it doesn't. The only thing that is supposed to resist your pulling efforts to any degree is the handle.

If it is indeed just the seat going backwards you need to work on keeping your back more upright during the leg portion of the stroke. Having the seat travel backwards while the handle doesn't is called "shooting the slide" and it causes you to waste the leg portion of your stroke, in addition to hurting your back. The handle should always be moving backwards faster than the seat.

Your DF (111) is well within a normal workout range (although it is certainly low for that damper setting) so there is something else going on here. I have no problem hitting the low-150's at roughly the same DF with a rating of only 15, although I am a bit taller.

Yes, the machine is in dire need of a cleaning, but that shouldn't be affecting your results for a given DF.

SirWired

[iain]

I then started a 20 minute row. I rowed 3376 M in 20 mins. S/M was 24 and average pace was 2:58.6.

It took forever for my heart rate to get up there, and the highest it ever got was about 132. I was sweating though.

I still feel like I'm doing something wrong. Every stroke I focused on pushing off with my legs. Well, when I push off with my legs, the seat goes flying back - there is no resistance at all.

Rowing is very different from other cardio activities as it involves a relatively short work segment then relaxing. The level of force attainable during the drive is much higher than in other more continuous activities. In addition, on the recommended drag setting, it is necessary to move the handle pretty quickly to exert this level of force. Any acceleration is only resisted by the flywheel once the chain is moving faster than the flywheel which does not slow down very quickly at low drag. However, the work in accelerating the flywheel is proportional to the cube of the speed, so a small increase in speed will require significant force. ENough of the science bit...

You need to accelerate explosively, think of doing a deadlift for the leg drive to quickly "catch" the flywheel and then accelerate it. This is a much more explosive action than in other aerobic activity and you should feel a pull across your back as teh wheel accelerates. Paces are difficult to predict as they will depend upon your rowing specific strength and endurance, but you should aim to achieve 2W/kg of lean weight. So if you are fairly lean at the moment, that would be 140W which is around 2:16, to convert try: http://www.machars.net/ . So your 20' was at the force required of someone whose goal weight was around 68lbs explaining why you didn't have to work as hard as you expected.

Hope this helps

- Iain

[cyndiko]

Thanks for the comments! This gives me some things to visualize.

With respect to the machine itself, the rec center has been open for a year and 1/2. I'm pretty sure the machines don't get very much use either! (good for me though). The center will be closing for one week in August for maintenance and cleaning, so I will stop at the front desk to see if that includes cleaning the machines.....next time I am going to use the other machine and see what happens.

I agree, at 24 SPM I thought my average pace would be a bit better. The wattage was only at 61. So something is lacking in my drive. My legs are fairly strong and solid from running (seated leg press @120 pounds). I will focus

I am going to review some more video, and may need to set up some time with my trainer to see if she can observe and help. I never see anyone but 'older' people on the ergs, but I'm sure that's how I must appear at the moment!

[KevJGK]

I still feel like I'm doing something wrong. Every stroke I focused on pushing off with my legs. Well, when I push off with my legs, the seat goes flying back - there is no resistance at all.

Hi Cyndi

I can imagine what you are doing wrong but it is difficult to explain.

When you start to push off from the catch you should feel plenty of resistance across your upper back immediately. If there is "no resistance at all" I would imagine you are just moving the seat and not the handle effectively just pushing your bum up the slide.

At the start of the drive try and imagine your upper body being made of stone. For every inch the seat travels the handle should travel the same distance. When you have driven 10" with your legs the handle should have travelled 10" as well. Only as your hands are passing your knees should you begin using your arms to pull the handle into your body. I hope that makes some sense?

Best of luck.

[bloomp]

to add onto what kevin said, think about having a tight core and tight arms. they should lock in so that as you push your entire body and the handle moves as one.

at the catch, your abs should be clenched tight, like you're on the toilet (terrible but it's the best comparison), and your arms should be straight out with tension in the deltoids/lats. as you drive, think about how fast you can SNAP your legs down in an explosion, while keeping your back and arms locked in place. try to get that split/500m down as low as possible by adding pressure and staying tight. don't be tense, just be locked in. once you get an idea of how low of a number you can get, then you can figure out how to pace yourself for longer pieces while understanding where the actual power comes from.

[cyndiko]

Thanks everyone - this is all very helpful and I can't wait to give it another go!

[Mattlikespeoples]

what you're doing is called 'shooting the butt'. The handle and the slide should go back at about the same rate and at the same time. Obviously the handle will go a tad faster since it has more distance to cover due to body angle but they should move at a consistant rate in relation to each other.

[cyndiko]

Thanks again everyone for the good pointers. It really helped! Tonight I rowed 30 minutes and definitely worked hard. My heart rate was at 150 and shooting to 160 at some points. That's the good news.

My 'numbers' however were pretty much the same , just slightly improved over the last row. So even with a better form and feeling the 'force', it appears that maybe I'm just not as fit as I thought.

The drag issue: I used a different machine this time, but I did check the dampers on both and sure enough, I can see the dust. On this machine, I had the damper set on 7 and the DF was 120. (the other night it was 111 on 8)

While rowing, I was averaging aound 2:36.5 and even 2:30 at times, so I was encouraged. I did 5,156 M in 30 minutes, @26 SPM DEFINITELY feeling it, and had to take two breaks so that brought my average pace down to 2:54.5 for the workout. Just like running, if you take walk breaks, it's going to throw off your pace!

I am still confused about the 'watt' piece - as my avg was a pathetic 66, and I was definitely working HARD. I was toast when I was finished, I couldn't hit the weights. So that whole wattage formula still confuses me.

I had to keep reminding myself to straighten my back - as I got tired, I was slumping. That part is difficult, I can tell I do not use my back muscles for anything.

And - blisters already? Any suggestions on gloves?

And finally, with running, pace improvement is slow to come by. I am still working to get to a 10 min mile just to be somewhat 'average'. Is it the same with rowing? If I row just 2-3 times per week, how long before I can start to see some improvement?

Thanks again!

[SirWired]

You shouldn't expect instant improvements. When I went to a lower rating, I got slower for the same amount of work also. However, with your more efficient stroke, your muscles will quickly adjust and you should see some obvious improvement after a couple more weeks of steady work. Just take it easy so you don't injure yourself while your muscles adjust.

The watts you see on the monitor is exactly what it sounds like; the power you would be producing if the flywheel were a generator instead of a fan. The reason why so many people here use it instead of pace is because it scales with the amount of work your body is producing. The speed of the boat, not so much. (The power required for a certain speed skyrockets the faster you go.)

As far as blisters go; make sure you are not holding the handle with a death grip. That just wastes energy, makes you sore, and give you blisters. Just think of your hands as a "hook" to pull the handle. You can use gloves, but I think if you grip properly, you should do fine.

SirWired

[iain]

The average Watts will be reduced drastically by rest time as it is calculated from the average pace. 2:30 pace is 104W, so a 70% increase!

Re blisters, if you hold the handle lightly in your fingers you will develop callouses from the blisters (use handcream to keep them supple and stop them splitting). If you want to retain sft hands, then the GripMasters sold by C2 work for most people, they are a pad with elastic for the fingers so your hand doesn't get too hot.

- Iain

[brigman]

[quote="cyndiko"]And finally, with running, pace improvement is slow to come by. I am still working to get to a 10 min mile just to be somewhat 'average'. Is it the same with rowing? If I row just 2-3 times per week, how long before I can start to see some improvement?[/quote]

Yes, it's exactly like running in that you get back whatever you put in. I found that my power output was only creeping up while doing 30min rows in the cardio zone, but saw improvements that amazed me when holding cardio rates, plus an extra 5 or 10 beats per minute, over 60 minutes. Sure, you hit the wall pretty quick, but you have to just keep your eye on the cardio and row to that heart rate. You'll take longer and longer to hit the wall until one day, you don't! I then opted for 20km because it's a distance I can do in under 80 minutes which, for me, is the ideal time to spend on any sustained power output.

As for blisters, it might not look to good at the gym, but I use slightly moist artificial sponge (*** DELETE - SPAM *** sponge) in a sock to reduce blisters by around 75%

edit:

And 8 months later I say, "I was wrong, they were right: it's all about the grip."

I use a pair of gloves now, but probably don't need to. They are made by Ironclad and called Landscapers.