Marathon runner looking for crosstraining tips workouts

[Nosmo]

When I was running I got injured if I went over 30 miles a week. Tried it several times, Built millage slowly, and always got injured. And I did run sub 3 hours on a hilly course. Don't run any more. Too hard on my knees.

This is a bit of a silly argument. Maximum performance requires high millage but it is not sufficient. You can do very well with smart training and much lower millage. There is nothing controversial about it.

Smart cross training can help, particularly with avoiding injury, but the gains are marginal.

[kini62]

You're not getting it. If I could do a 3:30 marathon on 30mpw AND 3:30 was my ulitmate goal, then yes.

But if I could do a 3:30 marathon on 30mpw my goal would NOT be 3:30 if I was able (time/physically)to run 80mpw my goal would change and I would be wanting to run sub 3.

If my goal were just to finish a marathon I could get by with not running at all and just walk the course.

Performing to the max of one's ability means training to that goal. There is no "just getting by" if you want to do the best you're capable of.

As for doing "very well" sure you can do very well with a medium amount of training but to do your best you have to put in the time and follow the right program for you and your physicall abilities/age/condition.

Gene

[anthonysemone]

rotsa ruck; talk to me when you're 75

tony

[raymond.botha]

I don't follow this low milage theory. My body can only extend itself lets say 30 % further than what I consistently train at and then my recovery from the effort is extended ie the performance is unrepeatable until my base training can work its way up to that level.

I find the challenge as stated above as the body getting used to carrying itself for a predetermined amount of time, much like standing the whole day when you're not used to it as John Rupp was alluding to in another thread. Then one has to build strength for that time too.

There's more, one needs the necessary mental strength over that time to maintain concentration which I find only comes about by doing distance. Its all about the nerves.

I know another guy here in his 40's that rows damn close to 6.00 flat over the 2k that told me he trains mega distances on the erg in prep for his 2k. His first ever row was something near to 6.40 and his very next row was a 6.20, ON THE SAME DAY ! His base came from another aerobic distance discipline.

I accept there will always be the exception to the rule, be glad if thats you. The rest of us hackers need the distance.

Gene keep us informed as to how your body responds to the cross-training. I'm still interested in that unfolding. Also what's similar ie I find calves take a hammering with both as well as lower back. I think running is a brilliant core body exercise.

Ray

[bloomp]

To an extent, I've found that rowing/erging helps my running, but that's for a distance like a 5k. The physiological problem is that erging builds up muscle all over your body, rather than just your legs, so you end up adding unnecessary weight which makes running more difficult, especially over longer and longer distances.

Erging is great to stay in shape, but it's not a solution for trying to prevent knee injuries while marathon training. My best running tips for you would be to:

A) Check your shoes, make sure they're not too worn down, that'll kill your knees a lot faster than you realize;
Stretch more than you think is necessary;
C) Do light weight lifting (circuit style, lots of reps and low weights) for calves/quads/hamstrings/abs/hips;
D) Make sure you're running on level surfaces, bad places to run are the roadside rather than the sidewalk because that gradient change will mess your knees and hips up as you're landing on one side of the body differently than the other;
E) Volume really is the only way to get better at running, regardless of what you feel, you'll never be able to complete another marathon at a good average pace if you start to focus on wanting to do the marathon faster. The same logic that applies for training for a 2k on the erg (more distance pieces faster means faster 2k) applies for anything, to do your marathon faster, you have to run distances that are pushing your body and getting it trained to the pain and working on endurance.

Also, what shoes do you use?

[raymond.botha]

I found the athletics stadium quite strenuous just from the gentle bends, even when swapping around to go the other way.

My shoes are Nike Air (BRS 1000) which I was recommended to use as I'm flat footed ...

I've got 2 questions for the runners :

1) Will it help to use a treadmill, and for what percentage of overall distance

2) I'm 94kgs. Is aiming for a marathon realistic at this weight. Even after a 40 day fast I only went down to 88kgs. so not sure how I would get much lighter.

Thanks for all the good advice guys and to Gene for the thread

Ray

[Nosmo]

My marathon advice is:

1) Don't do them! If you run close to a time you are capable of it will take a month to recover. If you are training to race and have a bad race you blow three months of training. You can race a 10K every other week--you can only really race a couple of marathons a year. Running is really hard on your body. Risk of injury is really high. Number one topic of conversation among runners seems to be their injuries.

2) If you do them build the millage and speed very very gradually! I spent a large percentage of my running life with sore legs. Don't over train. Don't train so hard your joints and muscles are sore (tired is OK but not sore-- sore is OK if it is from racing as long as you are not doing every week).

[Cazneau]

2) I'm 94kgs. Is aiming for a marathon realistic at this weight. Even after a 40 day fast I only went down to 88kgs. so not sure how I would get much lighter.

Thanks for all the good advice guys and to Gene for the thread

Ray

If doing a marathon is one of your life goals, you can do it. I did one, and the goal motivated me to get out and exercise with no excuses. However, it is true that long distance running is very hard on the body, and a first marathon is, in best case scenario, likely to require a few weeks recovery.

Also, marathons are over-rated as weight-loss plans. The long miles require you to do some serious re-fueling, and you will actually be increasing your calorie intake during the last phase of training. When the marathon is over, you need to be prepared to cut back your calorie intake significantly, because you won't be burning so many. You really don't want to be losing weight in the last half of your marathon training. You want those long runs to count, and post-long run refueling to go into increasing your endurance. And it is really easy to put on pouds in the month after a marathon if you aren't extremely careful.

Half-marathon training is for many recreational runners a better goal. It requires significant training, but if you do it, you can complete it and recover quickly.

[raymond.botha]

Allright, thanks. I see your point.

I suppose every South African wants to run the Comarades - an ultra (96km's I think). Its part of our culture to get up at 5am with a hearty cooked breakfast and watch the poor bastards the whole day, especially those that don't make the line 12 hrs later ...

If theres one bit of advice I've heard repeated is to increase milage slowly. I rowed my first half marathon on the erg after 2 months, suppose I was fit from cycling.

But running is another animal ...

May I repeat my question about the treadmill ? Is it it easier on the body, I notice it has give, and is it effective ?

What pace (ie HR zone) do you guys do your distance training at when running ?

Where's Gene ?

Ray

[johnlvs2run]

I gave a speech today, "my comeback to running", having at least an hour of info that I crammed into 7 minutes and 25 seconds, with 5 seconds to spare. As of New Year's Eve I decided to give running my focus for 2009 and beyond, ran 62 minutes that morning, and have found a new course that I've been running most mornings since, plus 4 hill sessions so far on weekends.

I'm looking forward to running my first race for almost 10 years, a 10k in May.

My shoes are 2 pair of 12oz running shoes that I got from Walmart for $10 each, a old fashioned (i.e. excellent) pair of 9oz Mitre that I found on sale at Big5 for < $10, and a heavy but well fitting pair of $14 court shoes from Costco. I went back to get more of the Mitre but alas they were all gone. The Costco shoes have a nice hard sole though and I'm going to get another pair of those, which gives me a ample supply of good shoes for my training. Some modifications include sanding the flares off the W shoes, cutting down the high backs of the heels, removing the insoles, and putting those and the C shoes in clamps to improve the forefoot flexibility.

The most marathons that I've run in a year was 7 in 1977, including 2 pb's, a near pb within 3 weeks of a pb, and a 50km (31 miles), plus many other races almost every weekend through the year. I was consistently running 95 to 98 miles every week and the races fit well with my training.

My objective now is to gradually increase my time running, and compete in 5k to half marathon distances. The latter might be quite scarce though, as a cursory look shows the entry fees half marathons are quite high. I don't have any plans to run any more marathons ever, and will probably stick with local races close by.

I prefer doing all of my running outside, and plan to get rid of my treadmill at the first opportunity. My only advice is to run barefoot, as this is easier on your feet and your knees, and to hold on to the bar. The first time I used a treadmill, I happened to glance at my watch (habit), accidently stepped on the side, and ended up doing 3 flips before getting tossed off the back. I won't let anyone use my treadmill without holding on to the bar at the front. However it's always much nicer to be running outside, at least here. If I lived in a very cold rainy climate then I would probably welcome using the treadmill more often. A good elliptical might be a suitable non-electric and safer alternative.