New Wolverine Plan Thread

[Snail Space]

MC alternative method for doing L4 workouts passed on watts, start with 50% watts at 16 spm then add a fixed amount of watts for each change in spm (3% of 2K watts for each spm?--don't recall exactly), produces a bigger discrepancy with the table then your formula does, so I think you are pretty safe.

Yes, Mike once PMed me with the %age of Watts formula, but I noted the deviation from previously tabulated paces. I was then stuck until Roy "Gooseflight" Walters (from the UK forum) published the full L4 tables (including the odd-numbered SPM sequences) on his machars.net site. In that file was the clue to the formula from which Mike had calculated each pace from any given stroke rate. I patched up a spreadsheet formula from that, and the results showed close agreement with paces previously published in the original WP L4 tables. Voila!

Cheers
Dave

[pmacaula]

Based on Nosmo & Mike C's mid-October discussion of Watt-based L4 targets, I made a a little table comparing the resulting paces with those from Mike's WP Pace Charts.

For the Watt-base numbers, I used Mike's suggestion of starting at 50% of 2K Reference Pace Watts for 16spm, and adding 3% of Ref Pace Watts for each additional spm.

The table is for a Reference Pace of 1:42 (329.8 Watts). Pretty easy to replicate for any Ref Pace. Conversion is done using the 2.8/(Pace in seconds)^3 to get Watts. Understand that some use 2.75.

The Watt-based targets are:
- a little slower (0:01) at 16 & 17 spm
- the same (at 0:01 granularity) for 18 through 22spm.
- increasingly slower at the top end paces - from 0:01 slower at 23 to 0:03 slower at 26spm.

As Mike pointed out in October, you should not be doing many strokes at the top end of the range in a well designed WP plan, as getting to a 20spm average should be the end of the line & often beyond the end of the line.

As I understand it, given the L4 is effectively the 'low intensity' workout of the WP, flattening out the workload at the top end is not necessarily a big deal. The key is consistency in hitting stroke rates & distances.

What I did find attractive (even if I won't try it this year) is what Mike & Nosmo originally discussed - the finer granularity of the Watt measurement (vs the s/500m pace) on the PMx.

Cheers. Patrick.


Watt-based Pace - from MC input in C2 Training forum (Oct 14/08).
Column 1 - Rate (spm)
Column 2 - Watt Method generated Pace (mm:ss)
Column 3 - Watts
Column 4 - Percent of Reference Pace Watts
Column 5 - Pace from WP Pace Chart
Column 6 - Difference between WP Pace Chart & Constant Watts formula

1 / 2 / 3 / 4 / 5 / 6
Ref Pace / 01:42 / 329.8 / 100% / /
16 / 02:08 / 164.9 / 50% / 02:07 / 00:01
17 / 02:06 / 174.8 / 53% / 02:05 / 00:01
18 / 02:03 / 184.7 / 56% / 02:03 / -
19 / 02:01 / 194.6 / 59% / 02:01 / -
20 / 01:59 / 204.5 / 62% / 01:59 / -
21 / 01:57 / 214.4 / 65% / 01:57 / -
22 / 01:55 / 224.3 / 68% / 01:55 / -
23 / 01:54 / 234.2 / 71% / 01:53 / 00:01
24 / 01:52 / 244.1 / 74% / 01:50 / 00:02
25 / 01:51 / 254.0 / 77% / 01:48 / 00:03
26 / 01:49 / 263.9 / 80% / 01:46 / 00:03

[Bill Moore]

I'm having a bit more luck with the goal paces on the intervals now.

My 5 x 1,500 goal pace was 2:03, which is 10 seconds slower than the last time I did it in September 2005. I went 2:02.7/2:02.8/2:02.3/2:02.6/1:59.3 for an 2:02.0 average. I probably could have gone faster and held it together, but I wanted to be conservative for the first time back and make sure I hit the goal. Next time will be a 2:01 goal.

[TomR]

Like Mr. Bayko, an interested lurker. It's good to see a thread like this here.

[nharrigan]

In the interest of bumping this thread.

I did a 60' L4 this evening that I enjoyed.

176 188 186 178 176 188

Just enough variety in the rates to keep it interesting, but not a killer.

I've often struggled with getting back into a training after an injury or illness. Does anyone have any rules of thumb about how much to ease off and for how long. I seem to get sick or injured a few times a year.

Thanks,

Neil

[bmcgraw]

Quick question:

In looking at the L3 pacing formulas for the following workouts:

12k continuous
2x6k' r7-8
15 x 3' r1

Mike advises a speed of approximately 85-90% of the 2k split you are working off of. Given my current 8x500m and 4x1k, my 2k split looks like its right around 1:45.

1:45/500m converts to approx 300 wats

.85(300) ~= 260 which gives a split of approx 1:50
.9(300) ~= 270 which gives a split of approx 1:49

There is no way I could hold 1:49/1:50 for a distance of 12k, nor do I think I could hold it for 2x6k. Am I mis interpreting what he is saying?

For reference, my last 12k cont was 1:59.0 and my last 2x6k was 1:55.8, 1:54.6. I would describe both as "tough, but doable"

[Bill Moore]

I did a 60' L4 this evening that I enjoyed.

You enjoyed an L4 workout? I enjoy finishing them more than doing them. It's a good challenge to stay focused with all of the shifts and hit the targets. OK, so I guess I enjoy the challenge of these workouts too...

I'm interested in hearing feedback from others regarding recovery and getting back to training. I cold can bump me off for a week if I can't breath that great, and in a household with kids, colds can be hard to avoid, although I'm staying healthy this year. If I get enough sleep, eat right, and workout, my body's immune system generally keeps sickness at bay, and I haven't had any injuries happen or resurface to impact workouts.

My approach for a longer layoff has been to start over by building a base and then getting back on plan. I'm sure there are some guidelines that people have followed after a short layoff. I also use the HR monitor to see how hard my body is having to work to perform at any given level to see if I'm over doing it, which would be one of the challenges for getting back on the erg.

[Bill Moore]

Quick question:

In looking at the L3 pacing formulas for the following workouts:

12k continuous
2x6k' r7-8
15 x 3' r1

Mike advises a speed of approximately 85-90% of the 2k split you are working off of. Given my current 8x500m and 4x1k, my 2k split looks like its right around 1:45.

1:45/500m converts to approx 300 wats

.85(300) ~= 260 which gives a split of approx 1:50
.9(300) ~= 270 which gives a split of approx 1:49

There is no way I could hold 1:49/1:50 for a distance of 12k, nor do I think I could hold it for 2x6k. Am I mis interpreting what he is saying?

For reference, my last 12k cont was 1:59.0 and my last 2x6k was 1:55.8, 1:54.6. I would describe both as "tough, but doable"

Your reference pace of 1:45 would give you a 2:04 L3 pace at 85%. (1:45 = 105 seconds...105 seconds / .85 = 123.5 seconds = 2:04). He kept the calculations based on pace in seconds, not watts.

Also, Mike only put the 2x6k out for people that couldn't complete a 12k.

[pmacaula]

I did a 60' L4 this evening that I enjoyed....Does anyone have any rules of thumb about how much to ease off and for how long.

Neil & Bill - I have a vague recollection of a long-ago posting on this topic by MC suggesting that for every week off, it took him about three weeks to get back to where he was before taking the week off (whether due to illness, other priorities, etc).

My two year old just passed on a nasty flu bug that hit me Monday morning; less than 24 hours after a 2K test. Hope not to be out for a full week, but will report back on performance gap once I am back in the saddle.

Neil - L4s are my favourite type of WP workout. Call it a character flaw. Glad to know I am not the only one

Cheers. Patrick.

[bmcgraw]

Your reference pace of 1:45 would give you a 2:04 L3 pace at 85%. (1:45 = 105 seconds...105 seconds / .85 = 123.5 seconds = 2:04). He kept the calculations based on pace in seconds, not watts.

Also, Mike only put the 2x6k out for people that couldn't complete a 12k.

Thanks for the clarification on both issues.

Being that I can complete the 12k at 1:59 , would you recommend keeping that pace (though it is below the 2:04) and adding distance?

[Bill Moore]

Thanks for the clarification on both issues.

Being that I can complete the 12k at 1:59 , would you recommend keeping that pace (though it is below the 2:04) and adding distance?

I'd stick with 1:59 and add 500m each week. Just remember that the L3 workouts aren't supposed too tough, and only you can gauge your perceived effort on this piece. Also, the pace needs to fit well with the other workouts to have the interval sessions be the top of the pyramid of your training with the L3 & L4 workouts being the base.

Based solely on your calculated 1:45 reference pace, I believe you should be able to use the following paces: 1:41 - 8x500, 1:43 - L1 Pyramid, 1:45 - 4x1k, 1:53 - Any L2 workout, and 1:59 - long L3, and 1:56 15x3'. The L4 reference paces are all detailed in the tables Mike posted with the original plan.

I keep my L3 pace constant and increase the distance each week for the long row. I increase my L1 & L2 goal paces for each workout, while minimizing the variation during and between each interval. Don't try to increase the pace for L3 or L4 during a training season, which I consider to be 4-6 months. You can re-establish a reference pace for each training cycle.

How long have you been working with the plan? Since you just figured out that your calculated L3 pace wasn't reasonable, it sounds like you're just getting started. Patience is key during the first 6 weeks while you get familiar with the reality of actually doing the plan. Your paces will make sense, you'll have confidence with each workout, and you'll have a strong foundation to begin to really benefit from the layout of the plan. You'll also have more questions, so be sure to check back with the plan and the forum for any further clarification.

[TomR]

If you were to add distance to your 12k @ 1.59, how long before you would hit the limits of your ability to do that L3 workout? Sounds to me as though it could quickly become an unwelcome bear.

If you think you can get lots faster or are close to peaking for a race, the 1.59 pace might be good.

The 2.04 pace gives you room to add distance (assuming you've got the time in your schedule) and continue to progress.

You could, of course, try some pace in between 1.59 and 2.04.

My comments are based on my recollection of what I could do when I rowed 1.45/500 for 2k.

[Nosmo]

[quote="nharrigan"
You enjoyed an L4 workout? ...
I'm interested in hearing feedback from others regarding recovery and getting back to training.....

I also like L4s. I find them by far the easiest of the levels to do. However I didn't like them much at first but once I got the proper reference pace and started hitting the targets I liked them much more.

In the past I've always started slowly after a break. First couple of sessions easy then when the breathing became better a bit harder. When one is sick I think this is the only way to do it or you may end up with a relapse by going too hard to soon. Advice I've heard many times is that one can train if you've got a head cold but don't if it is in your lungs. I don't really buy that--I've always felt that one should rest if one is sick. But I don't really know.

I had a two and a half week break in October because of travel and I did L4's and easy L3s for a week before I did any L1s and L2s. I think that was probably a mistake and I should have done some intervals the first week--slower and perhaps fewer then normal but I think it may be best to get back to intervals as soon as possible.

Unfortunately during that break my forearms started bothering me and erging didn't help and seems to make it a bit worse. So I haven't been erging for the last couple of weeks. This is really frustrating--last year I had a knee problem develop during a break and this year it is my forearms. Why I hurt myself when I'm not rowing I don't know!

I'm also cutting way back on my computer usage so I won't be posting much in the immediate future.

[Bill Moore]

My comments are based on my recollection of what I could do when I rowed 1.45/500 for 2k.

Good point. I just looked back at my log and I was doing long L3s (18k+) at a 2:01 when I was going 1:43.5 for 4x1k, and 1:49 for L2 workouts.

[nharrigan]

If you were to add distance to your 12k @ 1.59, how long before you would hit the limits of your ability to do that L3 workout? Sounds to me as though it could quickly become an unwelcome bear.
.

I think you could extend it quite a bit. The first year I did the plan, I stuck to 12k's for the L3. Same distance every week, just a bit faster. But the last 2 years, I've started to add distance and prefer that. If you add 500m a week it shouldn't be a problem.

I think there is some advantage to doing a long L3 session once a week. And recovery doesn't seem to be a problem. I'm currently doing 18k.

Bill, Patrick and Nosmo- Thanks for the info on recovery after a break. I've tended to do just L4s until I start to feel good.

As for the L4s, they are definitely my favorite. I just did the dreaded 3k, 2.5k, 2k. I'm pretty sure I hate that session the most.

Regards,

Neil