Improve My Rowing Times

[Ballgame]

Great ideas and encouragement, Patrick. Thanks!

[iain]

In reference to my previous post, my damper setting is between the 4 and 5 and my drag factor is around 118-119. I have a new Model D with a PM3. What does all this mean?

The drag factor is a measure of how fast the flywheel slows down. Your setting is fine for now, later you may want to experiment with what works best for you. However, this should allow a smooth fast stroke without putting undue pressure on your back. The drag factor for a given damper setting will vary between machines (due to dirt in the fan etc.), but the machine will feel the same if the drag factor is the same.

- Iain

[jamesg]

BG,
To train for a race in February, you have to start now, and you have to start on target. This means learning to row good strokes.
If your target is 7' dead, then you have to pull 300W. Someone your size and age can do this easily at rating 30, which means a Power/rating ratio of 10.
You need to do this every single stroke as from now on. It's not difficult: I could do it at age 63, tho not now. If you don't, you are not doing any real training.
However if you pull 2:12 (150W) at 24 = ratio 6.3, 10 is quite a lot more than what you now do.
This is a technique problem, but you may also need to get used to the idea of feeling really bad from beginning to end of the training piece. To limit this, you can take your time to warm up and you can adjust the rating by taking more time on the recovery, but do not change the stroke. The stroke stays hard and long whatever. Use your full length to get well on your feet with your hands near the chainguard, with your back straight. Then fly, using the stored energy in your quads.

[iain]

If your target is 7' dead, then you have to pull 300W. Someone your size and age can do this easily at rating 30, which means a Power/rating ratio of 10.
You need to do this every single stroke as from now on. It's not difficult: I could do it at age 63, tho not now. If you don't, you are not doing any real training.
However if you pull 2:12 (150W) at 24 = ratio 6.3, 10 is quite a lot more than what you now do.
This is a technique problem, but you may also need to get used to the idea of feeling really bad from beginning to end of the training piece. To limit this, you can take your time to warm up and you can adjust the rating by taking more time on the recovery, but do not change the stroke. The stroke stays hard and long whatever...

James is extremely knowledgable and experienced, I am a relative newcomer who has spent some time trying to understand erging from the people who know. However, I think you ought to know that James is not universally supported in his views above.

He is correct that you need to be able to pull hard strokes at a higher rating. The differences are in the best way to achieve this. Most erg training on all plans aimed at 2k or longer is done significantly below race pace (typically 20S or more slower). James and others believe that this is best achieved by slowing the rating right down. So if race pace is 1:45/500m at 30 SPM and long rows are done at 2:05, then to preserve the ratio James quotes (known as SPI, the Stroke Power Index), the rating for long rows needs to be 18. If the race rating has a recovery as long as the drive (I think it will be longer, but for illustrative purposes only), a recovery to stroke ratio of 1:1, to produce 2:05 pace requires a drive 1.19 x as long. However, the whole stroke is 30/18 = 1.67 x as long. Therefore the recovery is 2.14 x as long, a ratio of 1.8 to 1.

The other extreme believes that the whole stroke must be speeded up rather than just the recovery. i.e. 1:1 is maintained. THis means the length of the stroke is kept constant at a slower rating. Hence the rating required for 2:05 is 1:45/2:05 x 30 = 25.2. This philosophy is based on keeping the stroke the same rather than the power of the stroke the same. In fact, most advocates agree that for races the ratio can be dropped a little, but that training should all be done at the same ratio. The trouble with this is that the increase in power for a small rating increase is very large. Hence care must be taken not to get into bad habits which reduce the potential power of the stroke when performing at lower power. the advantage is that training is done at higher ratings which are closer to the demands placed on the cardiovascular system that racing will require. In addition, this does not tire the legs to the extent of the low rating high power approach and allows greater muscular recovery for & from the more intense sessions.

In practice, many coaches advocate a mixture. The Pete plan suggests long rows are performed at 22-24SPM which is intermediate between these approaches, although Pete (I will declare an interest at this point as I am coached by him) also does some of the hard distance rows at low rating and power per stroke even higher than during a race.

I would personally disagree with James on a more fundamental point. Doing all training from now at the pace you hope to improve to is going tyo be very difficult for 2 reasons. firstly, as I said above, to achieve your aim you will probably need to improve your stroke. This won't happen over night and will increase the power per stroke achievable. In addition, as your muscles adapt to the new exercise and you learn your limits, you will be able to pull harder. Consequently, most new starters get faster partly by being able to generate increasing power per stroke. so you want to aim for 10SPI, are currently doing 6.3 and will need to build this up over the time to your competition. You should not be demoralised if you cannot initially maintain 10SPI.

Furthermore, more controversially, some people (including Pete) report that after concentrating on low rating training (and at present, at 10 SPI you are not going to be able to train at high ratings) they have great difficulty increasing their rating for a maximal 2k on race day. This is sometimes made worse by people exagerating their stroke to maximise power per stroke in a way that is inefficint at high ratings and therefore their stroke has to be modified for racing. I fear that attempting to achieve a >50% increase in power per stroke over night is likely to lead to make this happen. things to avoid are excessive lean back and coming so far forward that your shins are past the vertical at the catch. For this reason I am yet to see anyone support Jame's view that the appropriate SPI is determined at the outset and then implemented immediately.

Sorry to present an unclear picture, as I said I am not knowledgable to contradict James, I just felt you should know that there are alternative views with experienced and successful advocates. Sorry for the long post, but hopefully this will reduce any subsequent distracting discussions. Whatever you decide, I wish you luck and enjoyment in your erging.

- Iain

[jamesg]

For this reason I am yet to see anyone support James' view that the appropriate SPI is determined at the outset and then implemented immediately.

It's just a mathematical approach to understanding minimum requirements. Not forgetting that when t'were done, t'were best done quickly.

Not least because BG says he wants to pull a 7' 2k in February. I think he can, but he has to go about it logically. He won't get there by pulling 6W' at 50, but things get a bit more feasible at lower ratings and higher Work, especially if it's only a technique problem that can be solved as from the next stroke he pulls.

30 spm at 10W' is certainly not extreme, one might even think it's too high a rating for 300W. But this depends on our own shape and size.

The first step is to learn how. So I suggest he see now what it means and do it, February is not far off. No need to pull a ½M at 20/200 on day one, but some longish UT2s and 1s will be needed. Watching HR, rating and Watts will give good control.

Learning how on the erg can happen by big bang or overnight, it just means doing things differently. Seeing the 6.3W' stroke characteristic, my guess is that BG is pulling hard but short. All he need do is pull full length and relax the recovery. He may even find it easy.

The second line of a 16week 5day Interactive says:
40'UT2 2x14'UT1 2x16'UT1 2x18'UT1 2x15'UT1
where UT2 is <60% of 2k Watts, and 1 is 60-70%.
If our target is 300W, these values lead to <180 and 180-210W at most. Just idling for BG.

[Ballgame]

Ok, so I am (slowly) trying to keep up with the math and logic of the thread so far.

I was lost for a little bit but feel like I am catching on. I was able to find the 500m split time to watts conversion page on the Concept2 website. This helped immensely. So here are some thoughts/comments and please tell me where I am (undoubtedly) missing the boat on things.

When I rowed the 2,000 piece on Monday my pace was 1:59.4 or roughly 200W and my SPM were 24. Thus, my ratio was 8.3 (200W/24) for the 2000m. My ratio for the 6,000m was 6.3 (150W/24). If my ratio was 6.3 for the 2,000m it seems as though the jump to the necessary 10 would be much harder to imagine than the jump from 8.3 would be.

Also, in 2006 when I rowed the 1:31.9 for 500m my SPM were 31. Thus, my ratio was 14.5, albeit for only 1/4 of the distance I need to row for the race (and it was 2 years ago). I was spent after that row and obviously could not have maintained that pace (if I had tried to go another 1,500m I would surely have experienced the "fly and die" effect previously discussed). I also rowed this time as part of a circuit training workout regiment at a gym where I would do a 500m row at most 3 times a week (and no other rowing). I only mention this because I know I have the physical capability of rowing at a decent clip for a short sprint like this and I was doing no focused training on the rower like I am in the midst of right now.

Are my assumptions and my math making sense or am I embarrassing myself because of my dim-wittedness? I must confess that I am still trying to work through Iain's post and to understand it better.

I will say that I have the motivation to focus on rowing a 7' 2k in February (if for nothing else other than it appears the odds are stacked against me ). More importantly, I am grateful for the folks on this board - it really is a neat community of folks.

[iain]

When I rowed the 2,000 piece on Monday my pace was 1:59.4 or roughly 200W and my SPM were 24. Thus, my ratio was 8.3 (200W/24) for the 2000m. My ratio for the 6,000m was 6.3 (150W/24). If my ratio was 6.3 for the 2,000m it seems as though the jump to the necessary 10 would be much harder to imagine than the jump from 8.3 would be.

Also, in 2006 when I rowed the 1:31.9 for 500m my SPM were 31. Thus, my ratio was 14.5, albeit for only 1/4 of the distance

Are my assumptions and my math making sense or am I embarrassing myself because of my dim-wittedness? I must confess that I am still trying to work through Iain's post and to understand it better.

I will say that I have the motivation to focus on rowing a 7' 2k in February (if for nothing else other than it appears the odds are stacked against me ).

Apologies, I have been distracted (terrible when work gets in the way of the forum!). You have calculated this correctly, I took James' numbers and didn't realise that he was talking of slow rows rather than your 2k. I also missed your 500. The issue then is, have you lost significant strength, or do you just have poor endurance as I would expect someone doing a 1:32 500 to be able to do a 2k in 6:40 - 7:10 depending on endurance, although this is based on other rowers and may be unrealistic for a new starter. So you definitely have the potential to go sub 7. Also, others have commented that it is quicker to recover fiitness than to build it the first time, so you should have a head start.

Furthermore, much of what I said is thus not applicable. Clearly James' approach makes much more sense as it would be extremely unusual for someone capable of 14 SPI at 31 SPM for 500m not to be capable of achieving 10 SPI a couple of year's later. Although if you have undergone a crash diet, been severely ill or something similar, this could apply.

So I think sub 7 in short order may well be achievable and, in the spirit of setting a hard challenge, I don't think you should be put off.

The question remaining is, what are you now doing differently?

I would recommend that you do a session of 6 500m rows with 3' rest between each. Don't go all out, but try and keep the rating up at 28+ and concentrate on driving hard with your legs. This session should be much easier than doing an equivalent pace 2k. To maintain James' recommendations, you should try and maintain 1:48 pace /500m at 28 SPM, although personally I think establishing what pace you can maintain at higher ratings is more important than maintaining the SPI at this stage. You may still be breathless before the start of the next interval, but should find the start of each relatively easy, but from the 3rd onwards, you may have to push hard to keep the pace going to the end. Make sure you finish all 6 even if you are going very slowly by the end.

Best of luck, I look forward to hearing how you fare.

Iain

[tdekoekkoek]

Ok, so I am (slowly) trying to keep up with the math and logic of the thread so far.
.

I would focus less on the math and more on getting fit and improving your technique. I for one cannot follow this thread. Well I probably could, but I find it somewhat senseless. For rowing it is generally more useful to follow your splits per 500m. I never use watts. I suppose for some it is useful. Anyway I suggest doing a lot of volume between now and end of December. Don't worry about times or high rating pieces. Then in January there is still plenty of time to bring your 2k time down.

Cheers,

Trevor

[Ballgame]

I appreciate the helpful insight from everyone. I view my next three months as a combination of two things:

1. Choose the right training plan.
2. Do the work.

So right now I am doing the Beginner Training for the Pete Plan. To achieve my goal I think I need to kick it up a notch.

Should I do the 16 week, 5 day Interactive program as jamesg suggested? Or should I jump full bore into the Pete Plan?

[Ballgame]

Did a 5000m piece this morning in 20:44.5 for a 500m pace of 2:04.5 @ 25 SPM. I did the same row one month ago on October 20 and did 24:56.8 for a pace of 2:29.7. Definitely feel like my fitness is improving.

I created a pace boat for 2:05 and won the mental challenge this morning (as jamesg alluded to previously I pretty much felt like rubbish @ about 2000m in but persevered).

[jamesg]

Well done, looks like you've already factored in the first "notch".

I'd carry on with the BPP if you're already well into it. There won't be large differences, and your 5k looks very much like a 2x10' UT1 in the Interactive.

The 2k crisis can be due to insufficient warm-up; if you felt stronger after that, it most likely was. A simple 5 minute procedure that's also technical is to start on the back stop paddling arms only, then gradually add swing, then legs; always relaxed and with a straight back. The stroke is full length when we reach shins vertical:

http://www.ara-rowing.org/rowing-stroke

If we want to stop young ladies like that steaming past us with no apparent effort, we could do worse than use her technique.

[Ballgame]

Well done, looks like you've already factored in the first "notch".

I'd carry on with the BPP if you're already well into it. There won't be large differences, and your 5k looks very much like a 2x10' UT1 in the Interactive.

The 2k crisis can be due to insufficient warm-up; if you felt stronger after that, it most likely was. A simple 5 minute procedure that's also technical is to start on the back stop paddling arms only, then gradually add swing, then legs; always relaxed and with a straight back. The stroke is full length when we reach shins vertical:

http://www.ara-rowing.org/rowing-stroke

If we want to stop young ladies like that steaming past us with no apparent effort, we could do worse than use her technique.

Thanks for the advice. I think I am going to stick with the BPP. I took your advice about the warm-up today before doing another 2000m piece. I definitely think it helped (as well as rowing around noon as opposed to the crack of dawn when I am not as limber). I cranked out a a 7:37.2 for a 1:54.3/500 @ 30 SPM. This is 20 seconds faster than my pace last Monday. As hard as rowing is physically I feel like the mental challenge is just as difficult - or maybe I'm just really out of shape!

At this point, I think I have a shot at achieving that 7' pace in February although I realize that at some point I am going to start to plateau. I just hope it's not until after the race.

Thanks again for all the advice. I'll check back in a little down the road to see where things stand. I'm also still planning to post a video for critique on my form and technique. Any recommendations on what part of the forum to post it?

[iain]

Good to see your rapid progress. Torn on how to reply, it really comes back to how wedded to your Feb. target of sub-7 you are and how hard that 5k was and whether you still have most of the strength you had for your quick 500s. To hit sub7 if you still have the strength will mainly require you to work very hard on stamina and I am not convinced that the distance of the PBP would be enough. The full PP done as dictated (most people push harder than intended on the intervals for the first few cycles) requires daily sessions of 10k or so, 4 of them continuous. That is a huge step up. it took me 3 attempts to finish my first 30 mins (albeit that I was going too fast with paces from when I was 20 years younger and fit). 30 mins to 10k was a smaller step mentally. If you feel you could go significantly longer, I suggest that you try to do steady rows (no faster than 2:10 at the moment) for a week or so at ratings of no more than 23 at increasing distance (try to go further on each one) until you manage 12k without stopping and have done 3 consecutive days of 10k or more. From there you could start the full PP, but set initial targets for the intervals that you think you could do without the rests so that you get used to the volume of rowing required.

From your times, I would say the PBP is the most appropriate, but this will not get you fully race prepared for Feb. However, to really perform on a 2k you need real aerobic fitness. In your short timescale (most people think in terms of 18 months + to get to a good pace) then you need to push the meterage. The PBP is designed to allow you to build up to doing serious distances, so is ideal if you are not sure that you could row for 40 mins non-stop.

Re 2k "crisis", I find that 6-12 mins into any row I start to sweat freely and go through a patch that seems hard, although it then gets easier. I have not seen this described physiologically, but it still happens to me (despite having done a FM), so don't worry. I also find a previous "crisis" some 1.5 - 2 mins into any faster piece/ interval. i think this is where my aerobic system is settling down as lactic acid has built, my pain threshold is still relatively low and there is a sub-conscious concern taht as my heart rate is climbing rapidly and is reaching "stressed" levels that i need to slow down. If the pace is right however, the rate of increase slows at about this point and I can keep going.

Best of luck whatever you decide.

- Iain

[BLN]

Iain-
I've also noticed on all of my steady state rows that it takes a while for me to start feeling good. Usually for me though it takes about 25-30 minutes to feel good. Those first 25 minutes usually end up being the hardest of the piece. It could be that it takes some time to build up the endorphins. If I'm ever starting to overtrain I notice that it will take me 40+ minutes to start to feel good in my steady state.

[iain]

Iain-
I've also noticed on all of my steady state rows that it takes a while for me to start feeling good. Usually for me though it takes about 25-30 minutes to feel good. Those first 25 minutes usually end up being the hardest of the piece. It could be that it takes some time to build up the endorphins. If I'm ever starting to overtrain I notice that it will take me 40+ minutes to start to feel good in my steady state.

That's very interesting, I have definitely found that I feel fresher after an hour than a 10k and naturally pick the pace up after 40mins or so, so may be I ought to add a 3rd phase to the above, although I am not aware of this happening fast enough to be noticed, i just realise that I feel better.

As well as endorphins, I wonder whether this is the result of a change over to a higher proportion of fat metabolism, I assume that initially the fats release into the blood stream lags the requirement, so when the system is fully in operation we should feel better. this is purely speculation.

Regards

Iain