Proper technique

[HeavyA]

Okay guy's it's time to eat crow. I would like to apoligize to anyone I have effended in my posts with my ignorance and My arrogance. Sometimes I'm not the quickest rower on the water. I now beleive you guy's are gods.

So here's the thing, I was sitting down last night reading the manual trying to figure out what I was missing. Now I new that the rower was air resistance but, it didn't dawn on me until I saw the words. I just built my gym recently and had yet to get power out there or a garage door. In my infinite wisdom I wanted to try and keep as much dust out of my rower as possible and soooooooo I kept all the plastic that it was shipped in on the rower, thereby blocking the air resistance almost completely. What a moron.


Today was my day off from rowing but, I did sit down and row about 300m before I died. I could see that my 500m was going to more like 1:45 if I could make it there. I guess it's back to the drawing board. It's good that I asked all the questions otherwise I would be rowing in ignorance for a very long time.

So I bow to superior athletes and hope to emulate you some day.


Jeff

[tdekoekkoek]

Well Jeff glad you got it set up right now.

Hang in there and join the fun to get your times down. If you really have a 39 inseam you could have a very long effective stroke. My inseam is 37 and I have a longer stroke than almost anyone I row against. So it seems you need to get more effective use per stroke. I've seen in your posts that you were rating very high. Don't know if that was due to inaccurate readings or if you actually were rating that high. My advice is to do the bulk of your work at low ratings (20spm or less) and focus on being effective. Then later you can bring the rating up for your sprint and interval work.

Cheers,

Trevor

[johnlvs2run]

I wanted to try and keep as much dust out of my rower as possible and soooooooo I kept all the plastic that it was shipped in on the rower, thereby blocking the air resistance almost completely.

This explains why erg times are faster at altitude.

[PaulS]

I wanted to try and keep as much dust out of my rower as possible and soooooooo I kept all the plastic that it was shipped in on the rower, thereby blocking the air resistance almost completely.

This explains why erg times are faster at altitude.

Not this nonsense again! There is no relevant data in existence to indicate such a trend. In fact, the "Altitude adjustment" for 2k Erg Scores indicates exactly the opposite. (no surprise there, eh?)

The normal range of DF's will automagically adjust for the slight differences in atmosphere density, and require the same amount of input for a given pace at any altitude on the planet, but humans will have less capability to produce power input at higher altitudes.

The problem Jeff ran into was that his DF exceeded the lowest range that the PM can handle, giving not only false pace readings but also the dodgy rate readings indicated earlier in the thread.

If any undesireable PM's show up in my inbox they will be put on public display here, so let's not have that happen, again. But please do feel free to debate the issue publicly if anyone believes a case can be made. After all, that's what this forum is for.

[PaulS]

Okay guy's it's time to eat crow. I would like to apoligize to anyone I have effended in my posts with my ignorance and My arrogance. Sometimes I'm not the quickest rower on the water. I now beleive you guy's are gods.

So here's the thing, I was sitting down last night reading the manual trying to figure out what I was missing. Now I new that the rower was air resistance but, it didn't dawn on me until I saw the words. I just built my gym recently and had yet to get power out there or a garage door. In my infinite wisdom I wanted to try and keep as much dust out of my rower as possible and soooooooo I kept all the plastic that it was shipped in on the rower, thereby blocking the air resistance almost completely. What a moron.


Today was my day off from rowing but, I did sit down and row about 300m before I died. I could see that my 500m was going to more like 1:45 if I could make it there. I guess it's back to the drawing board. It's good that I asked all the questions otherwise I would be rowing in ignorance for a very long time.

So I bow to superior athletes and hope to emulate you some day.


Jeff

I'm suspecting that you will come along quite quickly and be producing impressive times Jeff, enjoy the early days of many PB's, there is plenty of time for the eventual struggle for another 0.1 seconds in pace.

Welcome to the fray!

[michaelb]

Thanks for reporting back, Jeff, and keep rowing and keep letting us know how you are doing. I was worried about what was going on and how this was possible, because in part our whole sport depends on the comparability of C2 rowing machines in different places.

You have discovered a possible serious problem with the PM3 and with the verification code. It sounds like you were rowing at effectively 0 drag. Does anyone know if you can get a verification code under those circumstances, or will the PM3 accept any drag setting? John for example has modified his C2 pretty considerably to row at super low drag settings, but I always assumed that the PM3 adjusted for that (the assumption of our sport is that the PM3 adjusts for diffences in drag "perfectly").

[johnlvs2run]

John for example has modified his C2 pretty considerably to row at super low drag settings, but I always assumed that the PM3 adjusted for that (the assumption of our sport is that the PM3 adjusts for diffences in drag "perfectly").

My PB's have been in the range of 78 drag factor for the marathon, and 109 for 500 meters. The lowest I've gone has been 65, which was for rowing 110 kilometers in a day and 465 in a week. I did try going lower than that, but the going was tough as there was very little resistance on the handle and the movement was taking more energy than the output. However, I never tried it much below 60, and the lower drag factors were more for covering distance than for speed.

It is interesting that Jeff was able to achieve such times as he has with the monitor covered. I'm curious what the drag factor readings might have been.

It does appear that when the air resistance is low enough, as in Jeff's case, that the pm does not compensate and gives a faster time than expected.

[BrianStaff]

This explains why erg times are faster at altitude.

Hmmm! maybe I should just take my ERG to Flagstaff, Arizona (7000 feet) for my next try at a PB...only 2 hours away

Edit after reading further postings: "put trip to Flagstaff on hold"

Brian

[Bob S.]

I wanted to try and keep as much dust out of my rower as possible and soooooooo I kept all the plastic that it was shipped in on the rower, thereby blocking the air resistance almost completely.

This explains why erg times are faster at altitude.

Come off it John. You know damn well that your claim above is a lot of crap. I know from very personal experience that even at only 4000 ft of elevation, I am 15 seconds slower for a 2k at this elevation than I am at sea level. This is based on several sea level trials under varying circumstances. I am sure that you are well aware of the following quote from the article on the physics of rowing and ergometry

14. Effect of Altitude

An approximate formula for the rate of change of air-pressure p with altitude is:

(14.1) p = p0 exp(-z/7000)
where p0 is the sea-level pressure (approx 1000mb) and z is the altitude above sea-level in metres.

Self-calibrating ergs such as the Concept and RowPerfect would compensate for this by calculating a reduced drag factor (section 7), so still give an accurate measurement of the work done.

Eq. (14.1) corresponds to a pressure decrease of 1% for every 70m increase altitude. This means that, for a given lung-volume and breathing rate, the amount of oxygen taken into the bloodstream would also decrease by 1% for every 70m. If oxygen uptake through the lungs is the limiting factor in aerobic power output, then you would expect your erg power scores to fall off at the same rate (or split times to increase by 1% for every 210 m due to the cube relationship between power and speed, Eq. 4.5). E.g., in Denver (altitude 1500m), the air pressure is only 80% of the sea level value, so anyone moving up from sea level and trying a long-distance erg would probably find their power reduced by 20% (or times increased by approximately 7%).

Similarly, someone moving in the opposite direction (1500m down to sea level) would find 25% more oxygen in each lungful of air.

As far as the erg is concerned, the monitor is designed to negate the effect of air density differences, since it measures how quickly the wheel slows and bases its results on that. That is also covered in the above quote.

I know that you come up with a zillion different arguments trying to prove that altitude enhances performance. I don't buy any of that shit, but if you bring it all up again, I won't bother to argue back. I am a rower, not a f**king debater.

Bob S.

[PaulS]

I wanted to try and keep as much dust out of my rower as possible and soooooooo I kept all the plastic that it was shipped in on the rower, thereby blocking the air resistance almost completely.

This explains why erg times are faster at altitude.

Come off it John. You know damn well that your claim above is a lot of crap. I know from very personal experience that even at only 4000 ft of elevation, I am 15 seconds slower for a 2k at this elevation than I am at sea level. This is based on several sea level trials under varying circumstances. I am sure that you are well aware of the following quote from the article on the physics of rowing and ergometry

14. Effect of Altitude

An approximate formula for the rate of change of air-pressure p with altitude is:

(14.1) p = p0 exp(-z/7000)
where p0 is the sea-level pressure (approx 1000mb) and z is the altitude above sea-level in metres.

Self-calibrating ergs such as the Concept and RowPerfect would compensate for this by calculating a reduced drag factor (section 7), so still give an accurate measurement of the work done.

Eq. (14.1) corresponds to a pressure decrease of 1% for every 70m increase altitude. This means that, for a given lung-volume and breathing rate, the amount of oxygen taken into the bloodstream would also decrease by 1% for every 70m. If oxygen uptake through the lungs is the limiting factor in aerobic power output, then you would expect your erg power scores to fall off at the same rate (or split times to increase by 1% for every 210 m due to the cube relationship between power and speed, Eq. 4.5). E.g., in Denver (altitude 1500m), the air pressure is only 80% of the sea level value, so anyone moving up from sea level and trying a long-distance erg would probably find their power reduced by 20% (or times increased by approximately 7%).

Similarly, someone moving in the opposite direction (1500m down to sea level) would find 25% more oxygen in each lungful of air.

As far as the erg is concerned, the monitor is designed to negate the effect of air density differences, since it measures how quickly the wheel slows and bases its results on that. That is also covered in the above quote.

I know that you come up with a zillion different arguments trying to prove that altitude enhances performance. I don't buy any of that shit, but if you bring it all up again, I won't bother to argue back. I am a rower, not a f**king debater.

Bob S.

Bob, There are decaffeinated brands that are just as tasty as the real thing...

[Yankeerunner]

I have empathy for Bob. Been there myself more than once.

[Bob S.]

Bob, There are decaffeinated brands that are just as tasty as the real thing...

So why the bleep were you on your computer at 4:50 in the morning??

Bob S.

[Bob S.]

I have empathy for Bob. Been there myself more than once.

Thanks Rick

[PaulS]

Bob, There are decaffeinated brands that are just as tasty as the real thing...

So why the bleep were you on your computer at 4:50 in the morning??

Bob S.

Having some OJ before heading out for a row, checking the lake to make sure it was nice out. Dropped in on the forum at that time, since we went out of town for a visit with my folks for the w/e and I wouldn't be seeing it again until today.

No worries on the empathy, many of us have "been there" with many different bits of nonsense, but Bob was the guy that gave me the best advice regarding how to deal with it.

[michaelb]

Paul, you never responded to my question here:

You have discovered a possible serious problem with the PM3 and with the verification code. It sounds like you were rowing at effectively 0 drag. Does anyone know if you can get a verification code under those circumstances, or will the PM3 accept any drag setting? John for example has modified his C2 pretty considerably to row at super low drag settings, but I always assumed that the PM3 adjusted for that (the assumption of our sport is that the PM3 adjusts for diffences in drag "perfectly").

Is wrapping your C2 fan cage in plastic another secret method to cheat the PM3? Why can't it sense drag that is effectively=0 and/or how does ultra low drag mess up the mathematics involved. I would have thought that lowering drag to 0 would have reduced the credit for watts produced to 0 as well.