Concept2 Forum

Fellow UNM teammates,
I come to you with an urgent concern that must be addressed immediately. This is a problem I've had for 3 years now and occurs every time I attempt an all-out effort at a short distance on the erg. Yes, you guessed it...the dreaded "butt slide". With the "drive" portion of the stroke, I literally thrust myself slightly off-center on the seat, or worse yet, half way off. The constant re-adjusting inevitably slows me down as I am trying to get myself back to the correct position on the seat. I've tried the foam pad that C2 sells and it helps a bit. I've tried a towel on top of the foam, but nothing keeps me from sliding with an all-out effort.
I did my first 500 m today for the CTC August event (at 5:15 am before work). Did a PR but could have gone 1 second faster without my old nemesis, "butt slide".
I'm open to suggestions. Help me stamp out this dreaded and probably under-reported problem!!

kamdo wrote:Fellow UNM teammates,
I come to you with an urgent concern that must be addressed immediately. This is a problem I've had for 3 years now and occurs every time I attempt an all-out effort at a short distance on the erg. Yes, you guessed it...the dreaded "butt slide". With the "drive" portion of the stroke, I literally thrust myself slightly off-center on the seat, or worse yet, half way off. The constant re-adjusting inevitably slows me down as I am trying to get myself back to the correct position on the seat. I've tried the foam pad that C2 sells and it helps a bit. I've tried a towel on top of the foam, but nothing keeps me from sliding with an all-out effort.
I did my first 500 m today for the CTC August event (at 5:15 am before work). Did a PR but could have gone 1 second faster without my old nemesis, "butt slide".
I'm open to suggestions. Help me stamp out this dreaded and probably under-reported problem!!

Great time, btw. *Kevin,* I've seen some of my teammates in high school trying out double-sided tape to keep themselves firmly planted for shorter pieces, or just a carefully rolled length of duct tape. HTH.


Tom

Yes, Kevin, I know exactly what you mean. I doubt the problem is a lack of friction to be solved with the pad or a towel. I think the butt slide can be avoided by concentrating on one's technique. With me, the 'slide' usually happens at the end of a run when I'm tired and less concerned with rowing 'well'.

Gustaaf

kamdo wrote:Fellow UNM teammates,
I come to you with an urgent concern that must be addressed immediately. This is a problem I've had for 3 years now and occurs every time I attempt an all-out effort at a short distance on the erg. Yes, you guessed it...the dreaded "butt slide". With the "drive" portion of the stroke, I literally thrust myself slightly off-center on the seat, or worse yet, half way off. The constant re-adjusting inevitably slows me down as I am trying to get myself back to the correct position on the seat. I've tried the foam pad that C2 sells and it helps a bit. I've tried a towel on top of the foam, but nothing keeps me from sliding with an all-out effort.
I did my first 500 m today for the CTC August event (at 5:15 am before work). Did a PR but could have gone 1 second faster without my old nemesis, "butt slide".
I'm open to suggestions. Help me stamp out this dreaded and probably under-reported problem!!

Tried the double sided tape with no success. When I did the 1:45 the other day, I still felt like I could have gone 1-1.5 seconds faster with the sliding eliminated.

What damper settings are you guys doing these short sprints at? I have had no luck with the lower settings (2-4) as I don't feel smooth when my spm exceed 35-36. I compensate by cranking the damper to 7 so I get a "meaty" pull on the drive portion of the stroke. I think I'm going up further to 8 and go for sub 1:45. Let me know your thoughts.

Thanks!!

kamdo wrote:With the "drive" portion of the stroke, I literally thrust myself slightly off-center on the seat, or worse yet, half way off. The constant re-adjusting inevitably slows me down as I am trying to get myself back to the correct position on the seat. I've tried the foam pad that C2 sells and it helps a bit. I've tried a towel on top of the foam, but nothing keeps me from sliding with an all-out effort.

[snip]

I'm open to suggestions. Help me stamp out this dreaded and probably under-reported problem!!

Hi Kamdo.

I'm not one of your teammates, but was wondering what you mean by "off-center on the seat or worse yet half way off." When I think about off-center, I'm usually talking about lateral stability, but I'm guessing you're talking about forward/backward... Are you talking about coming off the front of the seat? pushing yourself off the back?

Are you trying to sit on the exact center of the seat?...generally I hear that one should be siting on the "sitz bones" on the front half of the seat.

I'm wondering if perhaps your abs/lats are not being held stable enough so that your center of gravity will stay forward of your hips during the majority of the drive?

or perhaps are you coming off the seat during the first portion of the drive?

Perhaps a bit more of a description of what happens will help someone diagnose a "fix" for you...

Best wishes.

Alissa

Alissa,
Early in the drive, with the force of the thrust generated by the quads, I can move back on the seat an inch or two. I constantly have to readjust in the recovery. This is only an issue with a maximal effort up to 2k. I do go a little side to side because of a mild leg length discrepency. My abs are solid and my form is good.

Dr. Kev:

I was reading the through the training forum regarding stroke rates for short distance sprints to find that many rowers have 60 - 80 SPM's. In trying to replicate these speeds and SPM, one can only conclude that there is either no leg action (locked legs and using arms/back only) or reduced leg drive (less than 50% drive). My rowing attempts mimic your observations that at 35 - 40 SPM, I am rowing "crazy and out of control".

Try a 500 meter row with arms and upper body only. Drop a note to see how the butt feels!

Rick

Rick:

The legs are the most important part of the sprint and the only way you're going to get that split alllll the way down. We need to use the strongest muscles in the body to do this. If you're getting sub 1:30s with arms and upperbody, mostly, disregard!

Dr. Kev:

Sorry the tape didn't work. And you swear your stroke is perfect with the legs going down as fast as possible? Wonder if this is mainly a super lightweight issue. Hey, you could always row with an anvil strapped to your back!

Tom B:

We have talked about a shortened stroke (leg drive) for optimum sprint performance (500m). As I've seen wide variations in damper settings to drag factors, what kind of drag factor do you use for the sprints?

I generally use a sprint damper setting of 5 or 6 (drag factor without C-Breeze is 153 or 165 respectively on my erg), the higher drag on shorter pieces (500m) and the lower on 1000's. If I set the drag much higher, my form goes to pot as I don't have stamina to hold my back straight.

Regarding upper body rowing only (arms and back at high stroke rates), I pulled a 1:38 for 500m. Anything with longer distance requires higher damper and lotsa legs!

Finally, I've been working with Dr. Kev's "Intensity Workouts" and I've dropped my weekly average splits from 2:05.2 down to 2:01.9. In this summer's heat and humidity, I feel good about the improvements.

Rick

rfahle wrote:Tom B:

We have talked about a shortened stroke (leg drive) for optimum sprint performance (500m). As I've seen wide variations in damper settings to drag factors, what kind of drag factor do you use for the sprints?

I generally use a sprint damper setting of 5 or 6 (drag factor without C-Breeze is 153 or 165 respectively on my erg), the higher drag on shorter pieces (500m) and the lower on 1000's. If I set the drag much higher, my form goes to pot as I don't have stamina to hold my back straight.

Regarding upper body rowing only (arms and back at high stroke rates), I pulled a 1:38 for 500m. Anything with longer distance requires higher damper and lotsa legs!

Finally, I've been working with Dr. Kev's "Intensity Workouts" and I've dropped my weekly average splits from 2:05.2 down to 2:01.9. In this summer's heat and humidity, I feel good about the improvements.

Rick

I've been training at a 180df but do the 500m at a 140df. When my legs are completely gone is the only time I switch over to upper body completely. The legs power the motor, even with the shortened slide. I still have no idea how these others are getting a SPM of 60-80 strokes. Mine tonight, after doing a 1:26.8 was only at a 41.

One thing I know I need to do is hit the weights.

Question: How well are you trying to hold your form for the 500m? I mean, form is always important for rowing, but sometimes form can be thrown out the window(temporarily) during a sprint, as long as you're not hanging off the side of your erg!


Take care in that humidity, you'll be blazing by the time mid-September rolls around and the weather peters out a bit!

Tom and Rick,
I agree that the spm feel best between 35-40. I have racheted down the damper to 6 and got my latest PR at 1:44.8. A little less slide this time. Will try 5+ damper to get a faster start, but if I go too low, my lack of leg length really factors into the equation. I have less pull on the chain than you guys do, so I either need to go up on the spm, in which case the form deteriorates, or I need to get more force/pull. The latter is why I put the damper higher than on easier efforts. Regarding form, I'm all gluts and quads until nearly the end when my arms finish the stroke.
I'll try the anvil idea. Maybe superglue?

Maybe you should try adjusting the height of your feet... I seem to recall that if they are set too low, the result can cause lifting off the seat, and raising them a notch or two can keep you from driving yourself off the seat.

A couple of things that I have been changing with the spints are:
1) as Eric mentioned above, I lifted my feet an extra notch. I now have 5 holes showing (Model D foot straps).
2) shorted the length of my stroke...increased the stroke rate from 40-41 to the 45 range...
3) inceased the damper rating from ~100 to ~125

My time has improved...but I still haven't done enough samples yet to see what is the best combination for me...