cold water rowing
- Byron Drachman
- 10k Poster
- Posts: 1124
- Joined: March 23rd, 2006, 9:26 pm
cold water rowing
If the water is never cold where you row, you can skip this posting
I don’t expect a lot of activity here, but I thought I would start a thread on cold water rowing. Mark and I started a discussion on outriggers and I thought a new thread would be good so we don’t hijack the thread on what type of boat do you row. The subject of cold water safety came up before on the old forum. Of course the Concept2 is an indoor rower and is a nice way to row if the water is cold and you’re an on-the-water rower. If anybody has further suggestions on cold water rowing, please join in.
I live in Michigan and we have winters. There are times when it is pleasant outside, the river is not covered with ice, and it is tempting to go for a row. I prefer to be outdoors if at all possible. It is well known that it is dangerous to go out when the water is cold. The danger is not necessarily hypothermia. You can survive a long time in freezing water. The danger is cold shock and dry drowning.
You can do a Google search on cold water survival or other keywords.
Here is a good site with information on cold water safety:
http://www.leoblockley.org.uk/cold-water-safety.asp
The cold water safety guidelines document is a good article.
I’d like to add some further thoughts on cold water safety.
I think it is important to have a good view of where you are going and of the water in front of the bow. Most cycling mirrors don’t give a wide enough view. There is one brand, Take-a-Look, that does give a good view of where you are going. It’s not that hard to get used to using a mirror. Just about anybody can flip if he or she hits an object such as a log, buoy, etc. while in the catch or finish position. If you use a mirror and spend most of your time looking at where you are going instead of where you have been, you are much less likely to flip because of a collision. In particular, I like to have a good view of the water before the bow.
Here is another safety tip that I picked up from an expert rower. Of course you tighten the gates on the oarlocks at the dock. After pushing off and taking a few strokes, I always reach over and check one last time to make sure the gates are tightly closed. If an oar pops out while you are rowing, it’s almost certain that you are going to flip.
I mentioned in the other thread that when the water is cold, I use some homemade outriggers. They are several inches off the water and out of the way of the oars so they don’t affect rowing at all. However, it would be very hard to flip a single with one of these attached. I attach them using two Velcro strips on each side:
I almost made some other outriggers for other members of the local boat club.
Here they are again:
I don't see any good reason not to use them when the water is cold. They weigh next to nothing, don't interfere with rowing at all, and attach in a few seconds with Velcro straps. And they could save you from flipping.
The yellow outriggers are made from coroplast (sign material.) Tools required would be scissors, an awl or nail to poke holes in the coroplast, some plastic ties, plumbers goop, scraps of wood and a couple of nuts and bolts.
I like to have the outriggers positioned well above the water so they don’t interfere with rowing but still close enough that you don’t pick up too much momentum if you are starting to flip. When attached to the boat, even though they’re above the water they seem to add stability. Maybe it is a little like a tightrope walker with a long stick for balance. Alden makes some “stabilizers” that attach under the oarlocks. I don’t know how much up and down adjustment they have. I like to have the plastic jugs or coroplast miniature boats a few inches above the water so they don’t interfere with rowing.
I think a perfect air temperature for winter sculling is around freezing or a little below, but not so cold that there is ice on the river. Dry pants, and a lightweight dry top that breathes but is waterproof are comfortable. Most articles say you should use waterproof gloves because your hands become numb when immersed in cold water. NRS makes some good ones. I also wear a PFD like cold water kayakers wear. It doesn’t interfere with rowing much. When the air temperature is in the 40’s or above, the dry pants and dry top get uncomfortably warm. In that case I just do a light paddle and do drills, etc. I’m still happy to be outdoors and on the water. Even if the air is warm, if the water is cold you should be prepared. Of course it is safest to stay indoors when the water is cold.
P.S.
Mark, that was a fabulous 2K. Way to go!
Byron
I don’t expect a lot of activity here, but I thought I would start a thread on cold water rowing. Mark and I started a discussion on outriggers and I thought a new thread would be good so we don’t hijack the thread on what type of boat do you row. The subject of cold water safety came up before on the old forum. Of course the Concept2 is an indoor rower and is a nice way to row if the water is cold and you’re an on-the-water rower. If anybody has further suggestions on cold water rowing, please join in.
I live in Michigan and we have winters. There are times when it is pleasant outside, the river is not covered with ice, and it is tempting to go for a row. I prefer to be outdoors if at all possible. It is well known that it is dangerous to go out when the water is cold. The danger is not necessarily hypothermia. You can survive a long time in freezing water. The danger is cold shock and dry drowning.
You can do a Google search on cold water survival or other keywords.
Here is a good site with information on cold water safety:
http://www.leoblockley.org.uk/cold-water-safety.asp
The cold water safety guidelines document is a good article.
I’d like to add some further thoughts on cold water safety.
I think it is important to have a good view of where you are going and of the water in front of the bow. Most cycling mirrors don’t give a wide enough view. There is one brand, Take-a-Look, that does give a good view of where you are going. It’s not that hard to get used to using a mirror. Just about anybody can flip if he or she hits an object such as a log, buoy, etc. while in the catch or finish position. If you use a mirror and spend most of your time looking at where you are going instead of where you have been, you are much less likely to flip because of a collision. In particular, I like to have a good view of the water before the bow.
Here is another safety tip that I picked up from an expert rower. Of course you tighten the gates on the oarlocks at the dock. After pushing off and taking a few strokes, I always reach over and check one last time to make sure the gates are tightly closed. If an oar pops out while you are rowing, it’s almost certain that you are going to flip.
I mentioned in the other thread that when the water is cold, I use some homemade outriggers. They are several inches off the water and out of the way of the oars so they don’t affect rowing at all. However, it would be very hard to flip a single with one of these attached. I attach them using two Velcro strips on each side:
I almost made some other outriggers for other members of the local boat club.
Here they are again:
I don't see any good reason not to use them when the water is cold. They weigh next to nothing, don't interfere with rowing at all, and attach in a few seconds with Velcro straps. And they could save you from flipping.
The yellow outriggers are made from coroplast (sign material.) Tools required would be scissors, an awl or nail to poke holes in the coroplast, some plastic ties, plumbers goop, scraps of wood and a couple of nuts and bolts.
I like to have the outriggers positioned well above the water so they don’t interfere with rowing but still close enough that you don’t pick up too much momentum if you are starting to flip. When attached to the boat, even though they’re above the water they seem to add stability. Maybe it is a little like a tightrope walker with a long stick for balance. Alden makes some “stabilizers” that attach under the oarlocks. I don’t know how much up and down adjustment they have. I like to have the plastic jugs or coroplast miniature boats a few inches above the water so they don’t interfere with rowing.
I think a perfect air temperature for winter sculling is around freezing or a little below, but not so cold that there is ice on the river. Dry pants, and a lightweight dry top that breathes but is waterproof are comfortable. Most articles say you should use waterproof gloves because your hands become numb when immersed in cold water. NRS makes some good ones. I also wear a PFD like cold water kayakers wear. It doesn’t interfere with rowing much. When the air temperature is in the 40’s or above, the dry pants and dry top get uncomfortably warm. In that case I just do a light paddle and do drills, etc. I’m still happy to be outdoors and on the water. Even if the air is warm, if the water is cold you should be prepared. Of course it is safest to stay indoors when the water is cold.
P.S.
Mark, that was a fabulous 2K. Way to go!
Byron
- Byron Drachman
- 10k Poster
- Posts: 1124
- Joined: March 23rd, 2006, 9:26 pm
Hi BW,
That's got to be frustrating. Nice weather, flat water, and no dock. I notice that Sierra Trading Post has a Bomber Dry Top for about $80. Look under clothing for kayakers. It has the gaskets, etc. and is short sleeve. That's probably better than my long sleeve dry top. The short sleeve top would still protect the torso and armpits, neck, etc.
I go out early in the morning while the temperature is near or below freezing. If I wait till later in the day the dry suit is too warm. Of course a real cold snap could cause the river to freeze again, but in the meantime it's great to be outdoors.
Byron
That's got to be frustrating. Nice weather, flat water, and no dock. I notice that Sierra Trading Post has a Bomber Dry Top for about $80. Look under clothing for kayakers. It has the gaskets, etc. and is short sleeve. That's probably better than my long sleeve dry top. The short sleeve top would still protect the torso and armpits, neck, etc.
I go out early in the morning while the temperature is near or below freezing. If I wait till later in the day the dry suit is too warm. Of course a real cold snap could cause the river to freeze again, but in the meantime it's great to be outdoors.
Byron
- Byron Drachman
- 10k Poster
- Posts: 1124
- Joined: March 23rd, 2006, 9:26 pm
Hi Mike,Byron - Tell us more about the dry top and pants. Make, model, etc. Most of the guys I row with in the winter use a 3mm neoprene "shorty" wet suit and I'm not convinced they afford all that much protection. A dry suit would be ideal but all the ones I've looked at would be much too restrictive.
I got these dry pants:
http://www.nrsweb.com/shop/product_list ... y=dry_pant
I bought a Patagonia dry top at Sierra Trading Post for about $120 on a close out. I also have an NRS Plunge Dry Top that I bought new at EBAY for about half price last year.
http://www.nrsweb.com/shop/product_list.asp?deptid=1172
The dry pants and dry top are very loose fitting and don’t restrict at all.
I much prefer the Patagonia dry top because it is lighter weight and breathes better. If it is cold and there is a freezing rain or sleet, etc., then I use the NRS top. During the winter, when there is a thaw, usually if I go early in the morning I can row when the air temperature is below freezing and I don’t overheat. If it warms up and gets into the high 30’s, I get pretty warm in the dry pants and dry top. Then I just paddle lightly and do drills, or just concentrate on seeing how fast I can move the boat without pulling hard. It’s probably not a surprise that sometimes I actually go faster when I ease up and just concentrate on technique and not fighting the boat. It might seem strange, but the problem with winter sculling is over-heating. I’ve also stopped at the dock and taken a short break to cool off.
I would not recommend buying a used dry top or dry pants. You want the gaskets to give a good seal. From the reading I did, I gather that wetsuits are not recommended when the water temperature is below 50 degrees F.
I should mention my hands. It seems whatever I do, it takes me a while for the hands to warm up. I have settled into this: I leave the dock wearing those cheap brown cotton work gloves that cost $1.00 or so. They’re handy for the ritual of checking the oarlocks after a few strokes. I have to stop several times and blow into the fingers to warm up my hands. By a kilometer or so, the oar handles have warmed up a little, so I then remove the gloves and use pogies.
http://jlracing.stores.yahoo.net/highvisibility1.html
The pogies don’t look like they could possibly keep the hands warm, but they do. I am not following recommendations here. You are supposed to use neoprene gloves or something waterproof.
Byron
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- Paddler
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- Joined: March 17th, 2006, 12:26 pm
Excellent! Thanks for that info Byron. I will check out the links.Byron Drachman wrote:
I got these dry pants:
http://www.nrsweb.com/shop/product_list ... y=dry_pant
I bought a Patagonia dry top at Sierra Trading Post for about $120 on a close out. I also have an NRS Plunge Dry Top that I bought new at EBAY for about half price last year.
http://www.nrsweb.com/shop/product_list.asp?deptid=1172
The dry pants and dry top are very loose fitting and don’t restrict at all.
I much prefer the Patagonia dry top because it is lighter weight and breathes better. If it is cold and there is a freezing rain or sleet, etc., then I use the NRS top. [removed]
I would not recommend buying a used dry top or dry pants. You want the gaskets to give a good seal. From the reading I did, I gather that wetsuits are not recommended when the water temperature is below 50 degrees F.
I should mention my hands. It seems whatever I do, it takes me a while for the hands to warm up. I have settled into this: I leave the dock wearing those cheap brown cotton work gloves that cost $1.00 or so. They’re handy for the ritual of checking the oarlocks after a few strokes. I have to stop several times and blow into the fingers to warm up my hands. By a kilometer or so, the oar handles have warmed up a little, so I then remove the gloves and use pogies.
http://jlracing.stores.yahoo.net/highvisibility1.html
The pogies don’t look like they could possibly keep the hands warm, but they do. I am not following recommendations here. You are supposed to use neoprene gloves or something waterproof.
Byron
Do you ever wear -just- the dry top?
Have you ever tested out your dry system in the local pool? I'm thinking that the two-piece solution may not be entirely "dry". It looks like the NRS one has only a velcro waist closure, which I would think would let water through. The Patagonia, on the other hand, looked like it had a neoprene waist band which I would think would at least slow the influx of water.
We row year-round on the Potomac (in a quad) and so far I have been using neither wet nor dry suits (bad boy!) but relying on my Under Armour and layering. I -do- swear by pogies, though. I put them on when I get out of the car and only remove them after my hands are getting so sweaty I can barely hold onto the oar handle.
MM
- Byron Drachman
- 10k Poster
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- Joined: March 23rd, 2006, 9:26 pm
Hi Mike,
I haven't tried the dry suit in a pool. The gasket on the NRS dry pants is very wide. The NRS plunge drytop has a wide gasket also, I'm guessing a small amount of water could seep in. I think the idea is not to have cold water circulating against you. If I'm working hard I'll build up some moisture inside the suit anyway. But I stay warm even when I build up moisture. I turn the dry top and dry pants inside out when I take them off.
I did read that the one piece drysuit is better, but it's not as easy to get into. There have been times when I just wore the drytop and rowing shorts because I couldn't stand the heat build-up.
That's a nice idea to wear the pogies before getting into the boat.
This is totally off topic, but have you ever seen (homemade, as if you couldn't tell) foot-pogies?
Are there ever logs or other obstacles on the Potomac? Does it ever get too much ice? If there are logs, I hope your bowseat uses a mirror and keeps checking.
Funny you should mention quad. Besides a single, I think a quad is the most fun. A quad should be safer than a single in cold water. It's nice to know there are other winter-rowers around.
Byron
I haven't tried the dry suit in a pool. The gasket on the NRS dry pants is very wide. The NRS plunge drytop has a wide gasket also, I'm guessing a small amount of water could seep in. I think the idea is not to have cold water circulating against you. If I'm working hard I'll build up some moisture inside the suit anyway. But I stay warm even when I build up moisture. I turn the dry top and dry pants inside out when I take them off.
I did read that the one piece drysuit is better, but it's not as easy to get into. There have been times when I just wore the drytop and rowing shorts because I couldn't stand the heat build-up.
That's a nice idea to wear the pogies before getting into the boat.
This is totally off topic, but have you ever seen (homemade, as if you couldn't tell) foot-pogies?
Are there ever logs or other obstacles on the Potomac? Does it ever get too much ice? If there are logs, I hope your bowseat uses a mirror and keeps checking.
Funny you should mention quad. Besides a single, I think a quad is the most fun. A quad should be safer than a single in cold water. It's nice to know there are other winter-rowers around.
Byron
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- Joined: March 17th, 2006, 12:26 pm
OK, thanks for that description of the waist bands, Byron.Byron Drachman wrote:Hi Mike,
I haven't tried the dry suit in a pool. The gasket on the NRS dry pants is very wide. The NRS plunge drytop has a wide gasket also, I'm guessing a small amount of water could seep in. I think the idea is not to have cold water circulating against you. If I'm working hard I'll build up some moisture inside the suit anyway. But I stay warm even when I build up moisture. I turn the dry top and dry pants inside out when I take them off.
I did read that the one piece drysuit is better, but it's not as easy to get into. There have been times when I just wore the drytop and rowing shorts because I couldn't stand the heat build-up.
That's a nice idea to wear the pogies before getting into the boat.
This is totally off topic, but have you ever seen (homemade, as if you couldn't tell) foot-pogies?
Are there ever logs or other obstacles on the Potomac? Does it ever get too much ice? If there are logs, I hope your bowseat uses a mirror and keeps checking.
Funny you should mention quad. Besides a single, I think a quad is the most fun. A quad should be safer than a single in cold water. It's nice to know there are other winter-rowers around.
Byron
A full dry suit would not leak at all but I think it would be terribly cumbersome. I used to wear one a lot when flying over-water in the winter and the're not much fun. I think your two-piece solution is a good one even if it does leak a little. It's not like you are going to be immersed for very long if you flip.
Your foot pogies look like the perfect thing for your bike!
Yes, we do get ice and debris on the Potomac and when it's bad, we don't go out. Last winter we lost only one week if I remember correctly.
The quad is the perfect boat for cold weather rowing. We take it out with either three or four guys. A good stable boat with lots of oars on the water. Be careful out there in your single!
MM
Hmmm around here winter rowing is called erging. The lake by my house has been frozen since early Dec. and the reservoir down in Denver, where the Rocky Mountain Rowing Club boathouse is, froze last week (but then in the past week we've had over 60 inches of snow at my house.) At the boathouse we take the docks out in early november so the ice doesn't crush them and put them back in mid March, weather permitting. If you chose to go out you have to stay close into shore, the water temp will get you if you flip. Latest I've ever braved it was Nov 10 and that was in a straight four with three other loonies. Pogies, tights, layers, layers, layers were the order of the day. dennis
- Rockin Roland
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- Joined: March 19th, 2006, 12:02 am
- Location: Moving Flywheel
The C2 erg was designed as punishment for OTW rowers that can't row in winter.
I can understand that the erg is not a very exciting alternative to going out in a boat. Looking at the above posts it looks like some of you believe this because of the extraordinary measures you are taking to get out in a boat.
I reckon if you like going out in a boat more than erging in winter then you should move to the west coast or somewhere further south. Change jobs and move your family with you for a better lifestyle. Surely you can't get a serious workout in a boat wearing all that stuff under those conditions.
I guess I'm just fortunate to be able to row all through winter with the water never getting cold enough to endanger life and only needing to wear two thin layers for our coldest conditions. When I want a change from rowing I just drive 100km up to the mountains to cross country ski on 30km of well groomed ski trails.
The only need for the erg is for crew time trials and some speed/interval work.
I can understand that the erg is not a very exciting alternative to going out in a boat. Looking at the above posts it looks like some of you believe this because of the extraordinary measures you are taking to get out in a boat.
I reckon if you like going out in a boat more than erging in winter then you should move to the west coast or somewhere further south. Change jobs and move your family with you for a better lifestyle. Surely you can't get a serious workout in a boat wearing all that stuff under those conditions.
I guess I'm just fortunate to be able to row all through winter with the water never getting cold enough to endanger life and only needing to wear two thin layers for our coldest conditions. When I want a change from rowing I just drive 100km up to the mountains to cross country ski on 30km of well groomed ski trails.
The only need for the erg is for crew time trials and some speed/interval work.
PBs: 2K 6:13.4, 5K 16:32, 6K 19:55, 10K 33:49, 30min 8849m, 60min 17,309m
Caution: Static C2 ergs can ruin your technique and timing for rowing in a boat.
The best thing I ever did to improve my rowing was to sell my C2 and get a Rowperfect.
Caution: Static C2 ergs can ruin your technique and timing for rowing in a boat.
The best thing I ever did to improve my rowing was to sell my C2 and get a Rowperfect.
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Disagree, Rockin. Just this morning got in 10 hard miles in a quad including 4 x 3' x 2' rest after three longer pieces from 3k to 5k. Granted it was only 43 degrees, water about the same and I wasn't wearing a whole lot of gear but even in the dead of winter we get all the work we could possibly want.Rockin Roland wrote: ...
Surely you can't get a serious workout in a boat wearing all that stuff under those conditions.
...
Surely you bundle up when you are getting a good workout on skis?
MM
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- Joined: November 14th, 2006, 6:31 pm
I've flipped wearing shorts and a sweatshirt in the michigan early november...
... I dont' ever want to do that again. First time out in a pair, just pushing off the dock we got a bit overzealous... and over we went.
My coach had to pull me out, stupid bodily responses to cold water.
... I dont' ever want to do that again. First time out in a pair, just pushing off the dock we got a bit overzealous... and over we went.
My coach had to pull me out, stupid bodily responses to cold water.
perfer et obdura; dolor hic tibi: Be patient and tough; some day this pain will be useful to you.
- Byron Drachman
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- Joined: March 23rd, 2006, 9:26 pm
The water is warm enough to test the outrigger right now, but I'm going to wait till the water is very warm, maybe in a month or two, and then see if I can get the boat to flip with the outriggers attached.Byron - have you tried the outrigger? In summer, I mean. Does it work?
I went out one cold morning in March when the air temperature was in the 20's F. and the water temperature was barely above freezing. I was wearing the drysuit and PFD. It was pretty windy but I thought I could row OK. As I was turning around near a bridge, sudden gusts of wind 25 mph or more came up and all of a sudden I was getting tossed around with very big waves. I got some swamping of the boat but not enough to keep me from rowing. I'm pretty sure the outriggers saved me from going in. I might have been able to stay upright without the outriggers but I suspect they helped. The nice thing about the outriggers is they attach in a few seconds and do not interfere with the stroke at all. I don't see any reason not to use them when the water temperature is cold.
As I said, I'll do some experimenting when the water is warmer. I'll also do some testing of the drysuit when the water is warmer.
Byron
We had some demo boats from Wintech at our club a few weeks ago. One had small pontoons attached under the riggers. An experienced rower took the boat out and found that the oars (hatchets) were switched, so he opened up the gates and switched them back while floating a few yards from the dock. He made some sort "hey look at this" remark while holding both oars up in the air. I was impressed.
bw
bw