What OTW Training have you done today

No, ergs don't yet float, but some of us do, and here's where you get to discuss that other form of rowing.
Bob S.
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Re: What OTW Training have you done today

Post by Bob S. » April 7th, 2012, 8:50 pm

mikvan52 wrote: The San Diego Crew Classic is a prime example of a bay venue... Funny how the premier events there are always scheduled for an ebb tide... hmmmm.... sissies! :wink:
they should reserve the great conditions for the masters, don't you think? :D
The San Diego venue is an interesting one. I am not sure if they are still using the same 2km stretch that they were using in the late 90s. I vaguely remember that there had been at least one change before that. As far as rough water is concerned it is completely protected from ocean swells, so it could just as well be an inland lake. As far as the tide is concerned, the end of the course is a shallow, closed inlet, so an ebb tide would make for a very, very slow current against the the course of the race. My coach used to schedule the home events on the Oakland/Alameda estuary so that the tide would be in the direction of the race - mainly to get the best possible times.

Other than making the course slower or faster, the main effect of the tide is whether or not it is with or against the wind. With the wind, no special problem, but when they are opposed the waves really kick up. At San Diego, the prevailing wind is across the course, hi†ting the port sides of the racing shells. Are you familiar with it? The course goes goes by an open area just after the start and everyone gets whacked by the side wind, after that the port side is sheltered by a low bank where all the shore activity takes place. It isn't high enough to block the wind a lot, but there is not enough distance for the waves to build up for the first 2-3 lanes. Further out, lanes 4-6 get it rough, since they are far enough from the beach for considerable wave formation. Not surprisingly, the lane selection figures prominently in the race results. I have often wondered just how the politics of lane selection is done. For those events which have 2 (or more?) heats, the lane selection for the later ones are based on the results of the early ones - first place in the initial heat gets lane 1 in the final (or semifinal if there is one). The mornings are often calm, but the big races, i.e. the collegiate finals, are all done in the late afternoon and, by then, the wind usually kicks up.

I have rather vivid memories of my last race at the SDCC. Our 6 seat collapsed at the end of the race and all I could see from the bow was that his head was in the water for what seemed an interminable length of time. The referee boat was there very quickly to pick him up and just as quickly to pick up the stroke seat of the adjoining shell, a cardiologist who proceeded immediately to administer CPR as the referee boat took off at top speed for the dock where the paramedics were already on hand. They gave him a couple of jolts with the paddles and hauled him off the hospital where he eventually recovered - with no memory of the event or even the party of the night before.
mikvan52 wrote: When I travel and row... I look for rivers and lakes... rather than bays... I'm not proud :) I like the easy treatment....
The well protected bays are probably just as easy as the rivers and lakes. The main protection needed is something to block the big ocean swells and most harbor areas have that. The Charles River Basin appears to me to be a good example of that. Do the tides affect the course of HORC? If so, an incoming tide going against the outflow of the river could make it rather messy. My only river experiences were on the Hudson at Poughkeepsie ('47 & 49' IRA regattas) and on the Ohio River at Marietta ('50 IRA regatta). The regatta on the Ohio was a disaster. There had been a series of storms at its headwaters. In his book about the history of crew at UC Berkeley, Jim Lemmon tells about "trees, cows, and parts of houses roaring down the river." He went on to say that the races were almost cancelled, but they were finally reduced to 1 1/8 miles on the "only remotely rowable stretch of water." According to his report, the water was wild, better suited to the dories that run down the Grand Canyon. What I most remember was a practice session, with the 2 Cal boats, varsity and JV regularly alternating positions as first one and then the other would surge on past as we went around turns, even though we were struggling to keep it as steady as possible.

I'd say that the only thing that really makes rivers and lakes easier is that it is not so urgent to wash them off - i.e. no salt - and some lakes don't even qualify for that.

Bob S.

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mikvan52
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Re: What OTW Training have you done today

Post by mikvan52 » April 9th, 2012, 5:39 pm

Interesting (& alarming) there, Bob..

I raced the Crew Classic in 2010 and experienced the inlet (heavy flow of water surging into the Bay) first hand.
As this comes at an almost perpendicular direction to the course, boats can be pushed into an adjacent lane almost instantaneously.. it seems....

Our cox had many war stories to relate of ill-fated crews...

The HOCR on the Charles doesn't suffer from tide... There is a lock between the Harbor and the Basin.... where the river becomes an estuary.... now cut off...

You can see it shown on this map by the Leverett Foot Bridge (Museum of Science... in Red)

http://www.paddleboston.com/boston/map.php

Bob S.
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Re: What OTW Training have you done today

Post by Bob S. » April 9th, 2012, 10:47 pm

mikvan52 wrote:Interesting (& alarming) there, Bob..

I raced the Crew Classic in 2010 and experienced the inlet (heavy flow of water surging into the Bay) first hand.
As this comes at an almost perpendicular direction to the course, boats can be pushed into an adjacent lane almost instantaneously.. it seems....
I had forgotten about that tidal surge through that inlet to the port side . I mainly remembered the wind waves in that section. My last time there was in the late 90s.
mikvan52 wrote:
The HOCR on the Charles doesn't suffer from tide... There is a lock between the Harbor and the Basin.... where the river becomes an estuary.... now cut off...

You can see it shown on this map by the Leverett Foot Bridge (Museum of Science... in Red)

http://www.paddleboston.com/boston/map.php
Thanks for the info. I had not heard about the lock and thought that the Charles had a tidal flow. I gather from reading the UK forum, that the Thames in the vicinity of London does have tidal flow. I have no idea how far up the effect goes. Apparently the Amazon is quite the opposite. I have heard that the water is still fresh many miles out to sea.

Bob S.

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mikvan52
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Re: What OTW Training have you done today

Post by mikvan52 » April 10th, 2012, 6:53 pm

Got out for 2 x 7k at dawn on the Severn River, Annapolis... glorious steady state... bread and butter workout for the fall and its flurry of head racing...
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Bob S.
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Re: What OTW Training have you done today

Post by Bob S. » April 17th, 2012, 12:46 pm

An interesting discussion on rowing on tidal waters:

http://concept2.co.uk/forum/blog.php?u=2491&b=96943

I had heard that the Thames was affected by the tides in the London area. This discussion goes into a lot of detail about it.

Bob S.

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Citroen
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Re: What OTW Training have you done today

Post by Citroen » April 17th, 2012, 2:18 pm

Everywhere east of Teddington Lock down to the Thames Estuary and Southend-on-Sea is tidal. That includes all of the City of Westminster and City of London.

Here's a short video showing Teddington Lock at it's finest: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCwLirQS2-o

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mikvan52
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Re: What OTW Training have you done today

Post by mikvan52 » April 18th, 2012, 5:00 pm

Citroen wrote:
Here's a short video showing Teddington Lock at it's finest: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCwLirQS2-o
I've heard of shiplap but never fish-slap :?

Why do our threads always end up in the full Monty..Python?
3 Crash-B hammers
American 60's Lwt. 2k record (6:49) •• set WRs for 60' & FM •• ~ now surpassed
repeat combined Masters Lwt & Hwt 1x National Champion E & F class
62 yrs, 160 lbs, 6' ...

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Byron Drachman
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Re: What OTW Training have you done today

Post by Byron Drachman » May 6th, 2012, 2:48 pm

I did 18K this morning with ideal conditions--flat water and temperature in the low 50's. There is a new crane family on our river and I had to stop and take a picture.
crane_family_may_6_2012_c_r.jpg
crane_family_may_6_2012_c_r.jpg (122.94 KiB) Viewed 13032 times

PaulG
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Re: What OTW Training have you done today

Post by PaulG » May 14th, 2012, 9:56 pm

Sunday I had a beautiful morning on the Merrimack River for my second session OTW this year. I rowed 4 miles upriver against the current and wind in about an hour and then covered the same distance downriver with the current and wind in about 30 mins. Along the way I had four bald eagle sightings (probably the same pair twice) including one sighting of an eagle hitting the water after a fish. Sorry Byron, no pictures.

A question for those more experienced OTW. When going downriver with the current and wind I felt somewhat out of control with more than a few bad strokes. Should I be increasing my rate to keep up with the water? Going against the current was fine with long and strong strokes.

Taking my 63 lb Echo Islander open water shell out of the water I tweaked my back carrying it up a steep river bank to my car. I've got to get a lighter boat but it sure does perform in rough water.

Next weekend I am entered in the Essex River Race, a 5 miler starting in the Essex River (MA) going out into Essex Bay and Plum Island Sound and then back up the River to the start/finish line.

Paul

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Byron Drachman
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Re: What OTW Training have you done today

Post by Byron Drachman » May 15th, 2012, 11:13 am

Hi Paul,

The eagle sightings sound wonderful. Yesterday there were about a dozen deer swimming and splashing as they crossed from an island to the shore and the woods. I was fumbling trying to get my camera out of the case and by the time I did it was too late. Oh well, maybe next time.

Some Aldens have drop in units so you can carry the hull and the seat-rigger assembly in two separate trips. It might not work going up a steep hill, but a little boat cart, the kind for kayaks, works great and is easy on the back. Some people say there are more back injuries caused by carrying boats and launches than there are from rowing. Our club has some Aldens and some Maas rec. boats, and we have had good experiences with both companies when ordering parts.

Byron

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Rockin Roland
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Re: What OTW Training have you done today

Post by Rockin Roland » May 17th, 2012, 12:17 am

PaulG wrote:
A question for those more experienced OTW. When going downriver with the current and wind I felt somewhat out of control with more than a few bad strokes. Should I be increasing my rate to keep up with the water? Going against the current was fine with long and strong strokes.


Paul
Ideally you would need to increase your gearing(more outboard on the oars) when rowing with the wind and current, otherwise you would be rating too high to keep pace with the conditions.
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Re: What OTW Training have you done today

Post by PaulG » May 17th, 2012, 12:49 pm

RR: That's good to know and makes sense now that I think about it, but obviously it would be hard to increase the gearing in the middle of a row.

Byron: I have one of those kayak carts and may give it a try, but that bank is awful steep. I should probably look for another location to put in and take out. There is a rough concrete ramp nearby, but it is pretty tough on the botom of the boat.

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Re: What OTW Training have you done today

Post by Nosmo » May 17th, 2012, 1:49 pm

Rockin Roland wrote: Ideally you would need to increase your gearing(more outboard on the oars) when rowing with the wind and current, otherwise you would be rating too high to keep pace with the conditions.
Agree about the wind. It makes a big difference.

However the effect of the current is zero to first approximation. What you feel is the boat speed relative to the water, so current shouldn't change the gearing. In still wind and without looking at the shore you could not tell whether you are going with the current or against it.

There are small second order effect because at a fixed absolute distance it takes more time to go against the current then with it and also in still air the wind resistance changes a bit because the boat goes different speeds relative to the wind depending on the current.

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Re: What OTW Training have you done today

Post by Byron Drachman » May 17th, 2012, 3:41 pm

Nosmo wrote:
Rockin Roland wrote: Ideally you would need to increase your gearing(more outboard on the oars) when rowing with the wind and current, otherwise you would be rating too high to keep pace with the conditions.
Agree about the wind. It makes a big difference.

However the effect of the current is zero to first approximation. What you feel is the boat speed relative to the water, so current shouldn't change the gearing. In still wind and without looking at the shore you could not tell whether you are going with the current or against it.

There are small second order effect because at a fixed absolute distance it takes more time to go against the current then with it and also in still air the wind resistance changes a bit because the boat goes different speeds relative to the wind depending on the current.
Hi Nosmo,

People usually say because you are using a lower stroke rate into a head wind, it should be easier to get the timing right. It usually feels easier to me to set the boat when I am going into a headwind. I suspect when going into a headwind that you get extra stability from the flow of air around the blades and maybe your body. Is that right?

Byron

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Re: What OTW Training have you done today

Post by Byron Drachman » May 17th, 2012, 3:48 pm

PaulG wrote:RR: That's good to know and makes sense now that I think about it, but obviously it would be hard to increase the gearing in the middle of a row.

Byron: I have one of those kayak carts and may give it a try, but that bank is awful steep. I should probably look for another location to put in and take out. There is a rough concrete ramp nearby, but it is pretty tough on the botom of the boat.
Hi Paul,

You can use CLAMS so you can change your gearing while on the water.

http://www.concept2.com/us/oars/related ... /clams.asp

The concrete ramp: Is there any way you can leave the kayak cart attached until the boat is in the water and is off the ramp, then remove it so you don't scrape the bottom of the boat?

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