Hello,
I would really appreciate any help on this topic. I am an avid cyclist, 40 yo, 202, but new to rowing/ERGs; I have rowed about 50K meters (please repress laughter). I first tried to intuitively row with proper technique, i.e., I understood legs, back, arms, etc. I first did 8:04, then 7:52, then 7:44, then 7:42 on my 2Ks. I had 21:12 followed by 20:40 on 5K. ERG has always been on resistance 5 since I didn't want to raise it being new. I checked the damping, which is fine, and have ERGed on three machines with identical results. I thought I was doing OK until I started really reading the forum and watching videos, etc. I have spent hours doing that and am still stumped. Here is the interesting/confusing part.
All my times of any consequence have been at 34-38 spm average; meaning I watch the screen as I row and it is never as low as 30 and sometimes hits 40. I can force myself to row slower, but my speeds decrease proportionally.
I realize that this is hideous technique, but have not been able to do anything better than a 2:30 500m while stroking under 30 spm. It appears (to me, the noob), that my speed is directly proportional to my stroke speed, analgous to gearing on a bike, that you just can't go 24 mph on level ground with 30 revs/min cadence, which is what 22 spm feels like to me. I actually have a slow cadence as a cyclist. I have good leg strength, marginal back strength and average arm strength (better than average for a cyclist). When I slow down my power curve looks better for sure, but is low and steady. I have a feeling I should be driving faster and recovering slower, but don't see that on the videos. Please help/advise.
George
New, asking for advice
-
Citroen
- SpamTeam
- Posts: 8078
- Joined: March 16th, 2006, 3:28 pm
- Location: A small cave in deepest darkest Basingstoke, UK
You need to get more power from your legs on each stroke. One way to do that is don't tie your feet down, rest your feet on the footstretchers instead (you won't fall off the back).
Then concentrate on getting more power into each stroke, drive with your legs, imagine it as pushing the machine away with a strong drive rather than pullng it towards you. As a cyclist you should have good strength in your legs. Do nothing with your body / arms until the handle is behind your knees. Then quick hands away from the body and relax and enjoy the recovery.
2:30 @ 30 definitely a technique issue. Try dropping the damper so that the drag factor comes out around 125.
Then concentrate on getting more power into each stroke, drive with your legs, imagine it as pushing the machine away with a strong drive rather than pullng it towards you. As a cyclist you should have good strength in your legs. Do nothing with your body / arms until the handle is behind your knees. Then quick hands away from the body and relax and enjoy the recovery.
2:30 @ 30 definitely a technique issue. Try dropping the damper so that the drag factor comes out around 125.
-
johnlvs2run
- Half Marathon Poster
- Posts: 4012
- Joined: March 16th, 2006, 1:13 pm
- Location: California Central Coast
- Contact:
Re: New, asking for advice
Yes, that is the case, however saying so on the forum is like saying the Emperor has no clothes.gkucera wrote:It appears (to me, the noob), that my speed is directly proportional to my stroke speed, analgous to gearing on a bike, that you just can't go 24 mph on level ground with 30 revs/min cadence, which is what 22 spm feels like to me.
Many will gasp and say it can't be true for fear of getting in trouble with convention.
Stroke rate depends quite a bit on one's height, arm length and torso.
Tall rowers, with short legs, long arms and torsos have much lower ratings.
The top lightweights, being 6'1 to 6'2 row at ~8 meters per stroke, whereas top heavyweights row at just under 10 meters per stroke.
My first few time trials were at 7.33 mps, right in line based on my height, though now I mostly row at 8 mps, a concession to not rattle the cages of convention, too much anyway. When I have practiced with lower ratings, meaning > 8 mps then my pace has gotten bogged down as it made my muscles heavy and slowed my times. To keep on track I often use a metronome, set this up behind the pm3 and use this while keeping right on pace. For example, this morning I rowed 60 minutes with the metronome at 26 spm while keeping the pace right on 2:24 which is 8 meters per stroke.
Using the metronome helps to keep a nice rhythm and right on the rhythm and timing that you're aiming for.
bikeerg 75 5'8" 155# - 18.5 - 51.9 - 568 - 1:52.7 - 8:03.8 - 20:13.1 - 14620 - 40:58.7 - 28855 - 1:23:48.0
rowerg 56-58 5'8.5" 143# - 1:39.6 - 3:35.6 - 7:24.0 - 18:57.4 - 22:49.9 - 7793 - 38:44.7 - 1:22:48.9 - 2:58:46.2
rowerg 56-58 5'8.5" 143# - 1:39.6 - 3:35.6 - 7:24.0 - 18:57.4 - 22:49.9 - 7793 - 38:44.7 - 1:22:48.9 - 2:58:46.2
Thanks to you both! I will be trying out Dougie's advice to improve my stroke power and work on my form for at least another month or so before going for speed again.
John, reverse engineering your equations it appears that I am rowing about 7.4 m/stroke. I am just over 6' though, and over 200, so I should be able to improve by 30% or so.
I will post my results after I get a little more practice.
Thanks, George
John, reverse engineering your equations it appears that I am rowing about 7.4 m/stroke. I am just over 6' though, and over 200, so I should be able to improve by 30% or so.
I will post my results after I get a little more practice.
Thanks, George
-
BrianStaff
- 2k Poster
- Posts: 220
- Joined: February 14th, 2008, 2:20 pm
- Location: Scottsdale, Arizona
George,
Just to confirm what Dougie is saying. Your 2:30 for 500m at 30spm shows there is something lacking in your technique.
Tonight, I rowed 5000m at 2:07.7 at 23 spm and my best 2K score is only 8:06. I am 63, 6' 2" and 212 lbs and I only started erging in February of this year.
Suggestion: row 500m at your normal pace and cadence. Note your pace time. Then try to do another 500m at the same pace but at a rate of 4spm lower. To do this same pace, you will have to drive harder with your legs, but it will be somewhat slower and you should have (more) time to recover on your slide forward.
Once you've mastered that, then try doing it again at an even lower spm.
Good luck Brian
Just to confirm what Dougie is saying. Your 2:30 for 500m at 30spm shows there is something lacking in your technique.
Tonight, I rowed 5000m at 2:07.7 at 23 spm and my best 2K score is only 8:06. I am 63, 6' 2" and 212 lbs and I only started erging in February of this year.
Suggestion: row 500m at your normal pace and cadence. Note your pace time. Then try to do another 500m at the same pace but at a rate of 4spm lower. To do this same pace, you will have to drive harder with your legs, but it will be somewhat slower and you should have (more) time to recover on your slide forward.
Once you've mastered that, then try doing it again at an even lower spm.
Good luck Brian
M 65 / 6'3" / 234lbs as of Feb 14, 2008...now 212
Started Rowing: 2/22/2008
Vancouver Rowing Club - Life Member(Rugby Section)
PB: 500m 1:44.0 2K 7:57.1 5K 20:58.7 30' 6866m
Started Rowing: 2/22/2008
Vancouver Rowing Club - Life Member(Rugby Section)
PB: 500m 1:44.0 2K 7:57.1 5K 20:58.7 30' 6866m
GK,
Rowing slow at 30 means you are pulling a very short stroke. Short strokes are heavily penalised on the erg by the need to catch up with the flywheel, where we lose another 20-30cm; so if you row short to start with, there's no pull length left.
The counter on the erg measures work, and work = handle force x stroke length, so both have to be reasonably high if we want to see any results.
Cyclists seem to have specific problems on the erg; technique and the engineering are completely different. On the bike it's mostly legs with a short stroke limited by the knee joint; on the erg, every possible muscle we can call up, and long strokes that are not limited by any single joint but by our overall size.
So try to lengthen out, using your full extension and all muscles. Don't be afraid to use all of yourself, it won't kill you even if that's the impression.
The handle will travel 70-80% of your height. Take a good long firm stroke, and don't rush for the next during the recovery. A low damper setting will help you to relax and keep it all smooth.
There's no single rating to recommend, it depends on your combination of height, CV fitness and strength. For what it's worth I'm 6'2 (188) 85kg and pull a net length of around 125cm, staying at 160-170W at rating 20.
Rowing slow at 30 means you are pulling a very short stroke. Short strokes are heavily penalised on the erg by the need to catch up with the flywheel, where we lose another 20-30cm; so if you row short to start with, there's no pull length left.
The counter on the erg measures work, and work = handle force x stroke length, so both have to be reasonably high if we want to see any results.
Cyclists seem to have specific problems on the erg; technique and the engineering are completely different. On the bike it's mostly legs with a short stroke limited by the knee joint; on the erg, every possible muscle we can call up, and long strokes that are not limited by any single joint but by our overall size.
So try to lengthen out, using your full extension and all muscles. Don't be afraid to use all of yourself, it won't kill you even if that's the impression.
The handle will travel 70-80% of your height. Take a good long firm stroke, and don't rush for the next during the recovery. A low damper setting will help you to relax and keep it all smooth.
There's no single rating to recommend, it depends on your combination of height, CV fitness and strength. For what it's worth I'm 6'2 (188) 85kg and pull a net length of around 125cm, staying at 160-170W at rating 20.
08-1940, 179cm, 75kg post-op (3 bp January 2025).
-
johnlvs2run
- Half Marathon Poster
- Posts: 4012
- Joined: March 16th, 2006, 1:13 pm
- Location: California Central Coast
- Contact:
world record holder Henrik Stephansen
James,jamesg wrote:Rowing slow at 30 means you are pulling a very short stroke. Short strokes are heavily penalised on the erg by the need to catch up with the flywheel, where we lose another 20-30cm; so if you row short to start with, there's no pull length left.
The counter on the erg measures work, and work = handle force x stroke length, so both have to be reasonably high if we want to see any results.
Here is a video of world record holder Henrik Stephansen from my blog.
He is rowing at 8 meters per stroke. Do you feel his stroke is too short?
Do you think he would row faster with a lower rating and more handle force?
http://www.quistmedia.dk/roklub/crash-b ... s_2007.swf
bikeerg 75 5'8" 155# - 18.5 - 51.9 - 568 - 1:52.7 - 8:03.8 - 20:13.1 - 14620 - 40:58.7 - 28855 - 1:23:48.0
rowerg 56-58 5'8.5" 143# - 1:39.6 - 3:35.6 - 7:24.0 - 18:57.4 - 22:49.9 - 7793 - 38:44.7 - 1:22:48.9 - 2:58:46.2
rowerg 56-58 5'8.5" 143# - 1:39.6 - 3:35.6 - 7:24.0 - 18:57.4 - 22:49.9 - 7793 - 38:44.7 - 1:22:48.9 - 2:58:46.2
John,
I couldn't open the link, so can't say.
Anyway, it depends on the rating. If HS was rating 42 with 8m/stroke, then we can understand why he is a world record holder (490Watts). No doubt he could do the same speed by lengthening the stroke and reducing the rating, or vice versa, but that's his decision, we all have our ideal combination of handle force and net length.
The point about elite oarsmen is that they can maintain length and handle force even at very high ratings, as we saw in August. Beyond a certain limit tho', something has to give, even for them. When things get desperate, they may well sacrifice length for rating to try to squeeze out a little extra power. What happens in the last 10 strokes of a race does not define what we do in training, or even at halfway in the race; if anything, the other way round.
You can understand my reasoning as to GK's complaint, by doing a little maths. He said he's pulling 500m in 2½' at 30. This pace is 200m/min and 104W.
104/30 is 3.5W'/stroke. To produce reasonable amount of power at this stroke work, he'd have to rate 60, and 120 to reach Olympic levels; not the way to go. So the path is, improve the stroke, drop the rating, then increase again, if we like, once the stroke is in place.
From now on it's guesswork; all he says is he's around 6' tall, 181cm. However using BMI=23 we can infer a fit weight of 80 kg at least. He can easily apply an average force to the handle of half this, 40 kg.
So now we have an equation:
3.5 W-minutes = 40 x g x Net stroke Length/60
For simplicity I write g=10; 60 because 3.5 is in Watt-minutes, but Force in Newtons x Length is Watt seconds; so
Net stroke Length = 3.5 x 60 / 400 = 0.53m, 53 cm.
I call this short, even adding 20-30cm slack to take up; it's little more than our arms' length. My full length is 150, net around 125.
Considering any other average handle force, we get another unique value of stroke length.
However I don't think he's pulling much less than 40kg, although when doing a few tests I found it difficult to simulate 100W at 30. I had to stop my hands before reaching my feet, lifting my knees just 2-3 inches. I usually warm up at 130-150W, 18-20. I certainly could not produce 100W at 30 with a full length stroke, there just isn't enough time to rate 30 at my full length.
Try pulling on the backstop with arms and swing only; you'll probably see more than the 104W mentioned above. If GK wants to work harder (and he does, otherwise he wouldn't have posted) he can increase either stroke length, or handle force, or both.
I suggest length to start with, force will come anyway. If GK applies 40kg average handle force, net length 120, rating 20, he's already at 160W, without even having to pull hard...
I couldn't open the link, so can't say.
Anyway, it depends on the rating. If HS was rating 42 with 8m/stroke, then we can understand why he is a world record holder (490Watts). No doubt he could do the same speed by lengthening the stroke and reducing the rating, or vice versa, but that's his decision, we all have our ideal combination of handle force and net length.
The point about elite oarsmen is that they can maintain length and handle force even at very high ratings, as we saw in August. Beyond a certain limit tho', something has to give, even for them. When things get desperate, they may well sacrifice length for rating to try to squeeze out a little extra power. What happens in the last 10 strokes of a race does not define what we do in training, or even at halfway in the race; if anything, the other way round.
You can understand my reasoning as to GK's complaint, by doing a little maths. He said he's pulling 500m in 2½' at 30. This pace is 200m/min and 104W.
104/30 is 3.5W'/stroke. To produce reasonable amount of power at this stroke work, he'd have to rate 60, and 120 to reach Olympic levels; not the way to go. So the path is, improve the stroke, drop the rating, then increase again, if we like, once the stroke is in place.
From now on it's guesswork; all he says is he's around 6' tall, 181cm. However using BMI=23 we can infer a fit weight of 80 kg at least. He can easily apply an average force to the handle of half this, 40 kg.
So now we have an equation:
3.5 W-minutes = 40 x g x Net stroke Length/60
For simplicity I write g=10; 60 because 3.5 is in Watt-minutes, but Force in Newtons x Length is Watt seconds; so
Net stroke Length = 3.5 x 60 / 400 = 0.53m, 53 cm.
I call this short, even adding 20-30cm slack to take up; it's little more than our arms' length. My full length is 150, net around 125.
Considering any other average handle force, we get another unique value of stroke length.
However I don't think he's pulling much less than 40kg, although when doing a few tests I found it difficult to simulate 100W at 30. I had to stop my hands before reaching my feet, lifting my knees just 2-3 inches. I usually warm up at 130-150W, 18-20. I certainly could not produce 100W at 30 with a full length stroke, there just isn't enough time to rate 30 at my full length.
Try pulling on the backstop with arms and swing only; you'll probably see more than the 104W mentioned above. If GK wants to work harder (and he does, otherwise he wouldn't have posted) he can increase either stroke length, or handle force, or both.
I suggest length to start with, force will come anyway. If GK applies 40kg average handle force, net length 120, rating 20, he's already at 160W, without even having to pull hard...
08-1940, 179cm, 75kg post-op (3 bp January 2025).
-
johnlvs2run
- Half Marathon Poster
- Posts: 4012
- Joined: March 16th, 2006, 1:13 pm
- Location: California Central Coast
- Contact:
Right now GK is doing 7.4 meters per stroke.jamesg wrote:To produce reasonable amount of power at this stroke work, he'd have to rate 60, and 120 to reach Olympic levels; not the way to go. So the path is, improve the stroke, drop the rating, then increase again, if we like, once the stroke is in place.
To reach Olympic lightweight levels (6'1) he'd only need to reach 8 meters per stroke.
30 spm at 7.4 meters per stroke is 2:15 pace
30 spm at 8.0 meters per stroke is 2:05 pace
As GK is rowing at 30 spm now, he can stay at 30 spm, and extend the meters per stroke from 7.4 to 8.
Or even staying at 7.4 could be a 6:31 2k for someone of lightweight height (6'1).
bikeerg 75 5'8" 155# - 18.5 - 51.9 - 568 - 1:52.7 - 8:03.8 - 20:13.1 - 14620 - 40:58.7 - 28855 - 1:23:48.0
rowerg 56-58 5'8.5" 143# - 1:39.6 - 3:35.6 - 7:24.0 - 18:57.4 - 22:49.9 - 7793 - 38:44.7 - 1:22:48.9 - 2:58:46.2
rowerg 56-58 5'8.5" 143# - 1:39.6 - 3:35.6 - 7:24.0 - 18:57.4 - 22:49.9 - 7793 - 38:44.7 - 1:22:48.9 - 2:58:46.2
-
hjs
- Marathon Poster
- Posts: 10076
- Joined: March 16th, 2006, 3:18 pm
- Location: Amstelveen the netherlands
http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=eqVmMd7FdAA
George this video is a nice technique example.
Mayne one tip wil also be helpfull, with cycling you are using a constant speed during the hole movement, many cyclers also do this while rowing, that is wrong, you have to increese the speed of the handle the hole time when it is moving backwards.
If you do this is not possible for a grown man to pull 2.30 at rate 30 plus.
About John, he takes every change he gets to advocate high rating at low drag, there is nothing wrong with that but it is the most extreme side of rating, at the high side.
Otw rowers are the other extreme, they mostly row lots at rate 18/20 sub 1.50 pace.
About the wr Henrik St. yes he is rating high during his race, but during training he rates a lot lower.
George this video is a nice technique example.
Mayne one tip wil also be helpfull, with cycling you are using a constant speed during the hole movement, many cyclers also do this while rowing, that is wrong, you have to increese the speed of the handle the hole time when it is moving backwards.
If you do this is not possible for a grown man to pull 2.30 at rate 30 plus.
About John, he takes every change he gets to advocate high rating at low drag, there is nothing wrong with that but it is the most extreme side of rating, at the high side.
Otw rowers are the other extreme, they mostly row lots at rate 18/20 sub 1.50 pace.
About the wr Henrik St. yes he is rating high during his race, but during training he rates a lot lower.
Halloween New Guy Update
Thanks everyone for the input and conversation. I am a 200 pounder, and dropping; hope to be 190 by February.
I have found a lot of other useful information on the forum as well, which now makes more sense to me. Here is where I am after two weeks of mild cold symptoms
I today rowed 5k in 7:23 with about 8.3 mps. I have 20 splits, with spm ranging from 28-32, with average under 30...yeah!! I have been trying to work on form and increase watts (wildly varies from 160-240) while decreasing spm. I have had some success, but am finding it difficult to increase drive force without hyperextending knees. My knees have been slightly sore after several training sessions. This seems to come from the fact that the first 1/2 of the leg drive has almost zero resistance; it feels like I am pulling slack until I am half extended with my legs, then I get some pulling action. This induces bad form since I want to take up the slack with my back and arms to maximize stroke pull. I will keep working on it.
I have found a lot of other useful information on the forum as well, which now makes more sense to me. Here is where I am after two weeks of mild cold symptoms
I today rowed 5k in 7:23 with about 8.3 mps. I have 20 splits, with spm ranging from 28-32, with average under 30...yeah!! I have been trying to work on form and increase watts (wildly varies from 160-240) while decreasing spm. I have had some success, but am finding it difficult to increase drive force without hyperextending knees. My knees have been slightly sore after several training sessions. This seems to come from the fact that the first 1/2 of the leg drive has almost zero resistance; it feels like I am pulling slack until I am half extended with my legs, then I get some pulling action. This induces bad form since I want to take up the slack with my back and arms to maximize stroke pull. I will keep working on it.
-
BrianStaff
- 2k Poster
- Posts: 220
- Joined: February 14th, 2008, 2:20 pm
- Location: Scottsdale, Arizona
Re: Halloween New Guy Update
You mean 2K...don't you?gkucera wrote:I today rowed 5k in 7:23 ...
Brian
M 65 / 6'3" / 234lbs as of Feb 14, 2008...now 212
Started Rowing: 2/22/2008
Vancouver Rowing Club - Life Member(Rugby Section)
PB: 500m 1:44.0 2K 7:57.1 5K 20:58.7 30' 6866m
Started Rowing: 2/22/2008
Vancouver Rowing Club - Life Member(Rugby Section)
PB: 500m 1:44.0 2K 7:57.1 5K 20:58.7 30' 6866m
whoops typo
Mental typo. I meant 5K, but should be 20:23, not 7:23. TY
-
johnlvs2run
- Half Marathon Poster
- Posts: 4012
- Joined: March 16th, 2006, 1:13 pm
- Location: California Central Coast
- Contact:
Re: Halloween New Guy Update
Are you getting up on your toes at the catch?gkucera wrote:This seems to come from the fact that the first 1/2 of the leg drive has almost zero resistance; it feels like I am pulling slack until I am half extended with my legs, then I get some pulling action.
If not, focus on this, and on rocking back with your feet while driving hard with your legs, hips,
firm torso, power culminating together extending from your feet to your hands, through your shoulders.
It helps to feel quite a bit of power at mid stroke and having a smooth force profile.
Mine is like a rounded extended triangle (dome home), depending on the pace and intensity.
bikeerg 75 5'8" 155# - 18.5 - 51.9 - 568 - 1:52.7 - 8:03.8 - 20:13.1 - 14620 - 40:58.7 - 28855 - 1:23:48.0
rowerg 56-58 5'8.5" 143# - 1:39.6 - 3:35.6 - 7:24.0 - 18:57.4 - 22:49.9 - 7793 - 38:44.7 - 1:22:48.9 - 2:58:46.2
rowerg 56-58 5'8.5" 143# - 1:39.6 - 3:35.6 - 7:24.0 - 18:57.4 - 22:49.9 - 7793 - 38:44.7 - 1:22:48.9 - 2:58:46.2
Thanks John,
I think your advice was helpful. It has been taking me a while to adapt from cycling into the non-uniform rowing cycle. I really feel like I am making progress. Since I posted this thread a few weeks ago I have been rowing with resistance on 3, but had it on 4 today at the gym (no hrm) when I decided to row hard; I got a new PB, 7:32.3 for 2K @ 33 spm; it also felt like my pulse didn't get as high as my old PB. This is a bit faster tempo than I would like, but an improvement over my old 2K time @ 38.3 SPM. Feeling pretty good about it.
GK
I think your advice was helpful. It has been taking me a while to adapt from cycling into the non-uniform rowing cycle. I really feel like I am making progress. Since I posted this thread a few weeks ago I have been rowing with resistance on 3, but had it on 4 today at the gym (no hrm) when I decided to row hard; I got a new PB, 7:32.3 for 2K @ 33 spm; it also felt like my pulse didn't get as high as my old PB. This is a bit faster tempo than I would like, but an improvement over my old 2K time @ 38.3 SPM. Feeling pretty good about it.
GK