Another Beginner

2whlrcr · Post by **2whlrcr** » December 18th, 2007, 8:29 pm

I tried rowing strapless tonight. I'm not falling off the back, but my stroke rate drops 23-25 SR. Any faster and I start to lift my legs too much.

In order to keep my 500M rates in the same range, I definately have to pull harder. But I can't maintain this without more perceived effort, compared to rowing faster. Kind of like pushing a big gear cycling. I feel more effecient at higher RPM's. Maybe I just don't have the muscular strength, compared to my cardio fitness?

I'll try this slower rate and harder pull for awhile and see what happens.

Thanks.

Nosmo · Post by **Nosmo** » December 18th, 2007, 9:09 pm

2whlrcr wrote: I feel more effecient at higher RPM's. Maybe I just don't have the muscular strength, compared to my cardio fitness?

Maybe, but maybe it is also some other technical problem. Don't mean to keep harping on this but it is very unusual for someone to row technically well without some sort of coaching on an erg (and probably impossible in a shell)

2whlrcr · Post by **2whlrcr** » December 18th, 2007, 9:58 pm

Nosmo wrote:
2whlrcr wrote: I feel more effecient at higher RPM's. Maybe I just don't have the muscular strength, compared to my cardio fitness?
Maybe, but maybe it is also some other technical problem. Don't mean to keep harping on this but it is very unusual for someone to row technically well without some sort of coaching on an erg (and probably impossible in a shell)

Unfortunately, I don't think there are too many coaches in Dubuque, IA. We are on the Mississippi, but I have never seen a rowing shell on the water. There are a lot of competitive canoeists here, but they don't count.

I might try to take some video of myself and post it, but since I'm computer illiterate, it could be awhile.

johnlvs2run · Post by **johnlvs2run** » December 18th, 2007, 10:38 pm

You are right that higher ratings are more efficient for your times.

Strapless helps with your balance and so it's good to do now and then but be careful as it can force your rating too low and totally screw up your technique. I usually do all my easy rowing without straps, and most of the faster rowing with them.

This being said, I did manage a 1:33 max split the only time I tried it without straps. And my 10 SB for this year was no straps.

2whlrcr · Post by **2whlrcr** » December 18th, 2007, 10:59 pm

Sounds like there are definately two schools of thought here.

johnlvs2run · Post by **johnlvs2run** » December 18th, 2007, 11:16 pm

Henrik Stephansen, 6:06 at age 19 lightweight.

http://www.quistmedia.dk/roklub/sm/video/sm06henrik.swf

http://www.quistmedia.dk/roklub/dm07/dm07_herre_let.swf

michaelb · Post by **michaelb** » December 18th, 2007, 11:42 pm

2whlrcr wrote:Sounds like there are definitely two schools of thought here.

I think we should be clear here that John Rupp is not a school of thought. Although he hasn't gone off the deep end lately and things have been pretty quiet around here, I don't think anyone does or should take his rowing advice seriously.

There are different theories and different approaches to rowing and training, and strapless is one method, that is popular here but is not accepted universally. You felt you were starting to hit a plateau, so this is a suggestion to get you beyond that. It may be harder at first as you adjust.

Another aspect of this to keep in mind is that rowing at lower drag rates, like in the 110-120 range as you are, may put a greater emphasis on technique, particularly being fast at the catch. When rowing at this drag, the flywheel maintains its momentum, and is moving much faster at the catch, then with high drag. If you are slow at the start of the drive, you waste a lot of your leg drive catching up to the flywheel and don't start accelerating the flywheel again until late in the stroke. The force curve may show this clearly: a slow rise in power at the start of the stroke, as opposed to a steep rise.

So rowing strapless will hopefully help teach you to be in control on the recovery, so that when you arrive at the catch you are in position and set and can instantly turn around and drive, catching up to the flywheel quickly and being connected immediately in the very early phase of the drive. Once you start capturing the power of your legs, you should find you are much faster than now when you are bouncing up and down the slide at the higher stroke rate.

2whlrcr · Post by **2whlrcr** » December 22nd, 2007, 1:29 pm

michaelb wrote:
Another aspect of this to keep in mind is that rowing at lower drag rates, like in the 110-120 range as you are, may put a greater emphasis on technique, particularly being fast at the catch. When rowing at this drag, the flywheel maintains its momentum, and is moving much faster at the catch, then with high drag. If you are slow at the start of the drive, you waste a lot of your leg drive catching up to the flywheel and don't start accelerating the flywheel again until late in the stroke. The force curve may show this clearly: a slow rise in power at the start of the stroke, as opposed to a steep rise.

This made sense to me, because it felt like I was doing little work until I'm half way through my stroke and that my legs are contributing very little. I turned my damper up to 170 and pulled a 500M. I could tell I was working much earlier in the stroke.

I was far from fresh when I did this test. I had just rowed about 10K and had a hard day of XC skiing and snow shoveling yesterday. I took three seconds off my 500M PB from a couple of weeks ago. I'm still only pulling 1:45/500M 34SPM, but I feel I can make some significant gains now. In a few days I'll go for another 2000 PB and see if the higher drag works for me.

Thanks

iain · Post by **iain** » January 8th, 2008, 10:04 am

I am no expert and am merely repeating my understanding of the arguments of others better qualified to advise, so please feel free to ignore.

Many people find initially that higher DF is faster. There is a good case to make for racing shorter distances at higher DF. However, there are long term benefits in improving technique to provide a faster acceleration and faster drive. This is promoted by rowing at lower DF on longer rows. High DF on longer rows requires greater core strength or it leads to backache.

More controversially, many train at restricted ratings so that longer rows can be accomplished with greater power per stroke. This means that times will be lower than at higher ratings. However, the long term aim is to increase the power delivery so that the unrestricted rows will also be faster. I find rowing high DF at low rating is very unpleasant as the flywheel slows dramatically and has to be accelerated significantly every stroke. Also, the impact of reduced effort on high DF is much more noticeable and so it is difficult to take a breather in a longer row without a large impact on the overall result.

rowland · Post by **rowland** » January 8th, 2008, 12:38 pm

"I think we should be clear here that John Rupp is not a school of thought. Although he hasn't gone off the deep end lately and things have been pretty quiet around here, I don't think anyone does or should take his rowing advice seriously."

I think that remark was rude and uncalled for. If you don't like his advice just say we have a difference of opinion, like the poster before you, without putting him down like that.

I don't know john but I have recently seen some of his diet advice and I agree with him, I have looked at his blog, he is in excellent shape for his age. When I recenly ask on the forum to explain some of the terms used, he was the first to take the time to repsond and his post was very helpful to me

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Another Beginner

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