C2 Chain Tool?

[[old] kieran]

I need to remove some links from the chain of my ergometer (model c). Is there a chain tool available to remove links?<br /><br />I've done this a lot with bicycle chains, but those tools don't work, since the c2 chain is so small.<br /><br />I'm going to be doing some force analysis of ergometer rowing. When I put the load cell in series between the handle and the chain, it lengthens the chain too much. So, I'd like to remove some links.<br /><br />Thanks for any help!<br /><br />-Kieran

[[old] mpukita]

<!--QuoteBegin-kieran+Nov 21 2005, 03:33 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(kieran @ Nov 21 2005, 03:33 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I need to remove some links from the chain of my ergometer (model c).  Is there a chain tool available to remove links?<br /><br />I've done this a lot with bicycle chains, but those tools don't work, since the c2 chain is so small.<br /><br />I'm going to be doing some force analysis of ergometer rowing.  When I put the load cell in series between the handle and the chain, it lengthens the chain too much.  So, I'd like to remove some links.<br /><br />Thanks for any help!<br /><br />-Kieran <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Kieran:<br /><br />See:<br /><br /><a href='http://www.motionpro.com/Docs/chaintools.html' target='_blank'>http://www.motionpro.com/Docs/chaintools.html</a><br /><br />They seem to have a jumbo chain breaking set with different size chain tools. You might be better off finding a machine shop nearby and borrowing something like this for 5 minutes. This one is kind of pricey.<br /><br />Thanks -- Mark

[[old] c2jonw]

Kieran,<br />We have gone to a lot of extra effort to make sure the chain will not come apart under normal use, some of which could easily be nullified by disassembly/reassembly as you are suggesting. We absolutely do not recommend tampering with the chain in any way. That said, if you decide to proceed with what you are suggesting, do your work on the unloaded end of the chain that is inside the frame, not the end that is attached to the handle. Jon W

[[old] PaulS]

<!--QuoteBegin-c2jonw+Nov 21 2005, 12:55 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(c2jonw @ Nov 21 2005, 12:55 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Kieran,<br />We have gone to a lot of extra effort to make sure the chain will not come apart under normal use, some of which could easily be nullified by disassembly/reassembly as you are suggesting. We absolutely do not recommend tampering with the chain in any way. That said, if you decide to proceed with what you are suggesting, do your work on the unloaded end of the chain that is inside the frame, not the end that is attached to the handle.        Jon W <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Would there be a point to inserting a load cell at the unloaded end of the chain?<br /><br />Jon, do you recall how this was done using a Model A back in the mid 80's?<br /><br />Point taken regarding the danger of a catastrophic failure of the chain, I have heard people describe "breaking an erg", but fine it pretty hard to believe that there was not some contributing factor in that happening. Though you have been around long enough to litteraly have "seen it all".

[[old] kieran]

<!--QuoteBegin-PaulS+Nov 21 2005, 05:11 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Nov 21 2005, 05:11 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-c2jonw+Nov 21 2005, 12:55 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(c2jonw @ Nov 21 2005, 12:55 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Kieran,<br />We have gone to a lot of extra effort to make sure the chain will not come apart under normal use, some of which could easily be nullified by disassembly/reassembly as you are suggesting. We absolutely do not recommend tampering with the chain in any way. That said, if you decide to proceed with what you are suggesting, do your work on the unloaded end of the chain that is inside the frame, not the end that is attached to the handle.        Jon W <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Would there be a point to inserting a load cell at the unloaded end of the chain?<br /><br />Jon, do you recall how this was done using a Model A back in the mid 80's?<br /><br />Point taken regarding the danger of a catastrophic failure of the chain, I have heard people describe "breaking an erg", but fine it pretty hard to believe that there was not some contributing factor in that happening. Though you have been around long enough to litteraly have "seen it all". <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Paul,<br /><br />The load cell would still go between the chain and the handle, but I would shorten the chain at the unloaded end.<br /><br />Speaking of breaking an erg... I have been testing various methods to attach the load cell between the erg and the handle. One of which did indeed break when I pulled very hard on it (in the middle of about 30 strokes hard). I flew off the end of the erg and landed on my right butt-cheek. OUCH. Sciatica was unbelievable that night... my whole leg felt like a "funny bone" nightmare! I suppose it was better than landing on my coccyx (tail bone) which I'd probably have broken. Now I test stuff with an exercise mat behind the erg. <br /><br />-Kieran

[[old] kieran]

<!--QuoteBegin-c2jonw+Nov 21 2005, 04:55 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(c2jonw @ Nov 21 2005, 04:55 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Kieran,<br />We have gone to a lot of extra effort to make sure the chain will not come apart under normal use, some of which could easily be nullified by disassembly/reassembly as you are suggesting. We absolutely do not recommend tampering with the chain in any way. That said, if you decide to proceed with what you are suggesting, do your work on the unloaded end of the chain that is inside the frame, not the end that is attached to the handle.        Jon W <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />John,<br /><br />Thanks. It was a pleasure chatting with you. I'll let you know how it turns out.<br /><br />-Kieran

[[old] c2jonw]

Hi Paul,<br /><br />"Jon, do you recall how this was done using a Model A back in the mid 80's?"<br /><br />How what was done? Connecting the chain to the handle? There was a thru hole in the handle with a stainless steel sleeve, which also had a cross hole thru both walls. The chain was inserted in the sleeve, and a hardened pin was put thru the sleeve and chain. Pin and sleeve were then embedded in the handle with a couple whacks of a hammer. We've come a ways from that method.....<br /><br />"Point taken regarding the danger of a catastrophic failure of the chain, I have heard people describe "breaking an erg", but fine it pretty hard to believe that there was not some contributing factor in that happening. Though you have been around long enough to litteraly have "seen it all". "<br /><br />Yes typically in the case of both ergs and oars there is a preexisting condition that leads to a catastrophic failure- unreported collisions or twisted chains come to mind......JonW<br />

[[old] PaulS]

<!--QuoteBegin-kieran+Nov 21 2005, 01:31 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(kieran @ Nov 21 2005, 01:31 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-PaulS+Nov 21 2005, 05:11 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Nov 21 2005, 05:11 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-c2jonw+Nov 21 2005, 12:55 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(c2jonw @ Nov 21 2005, 12:55 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Kieran,<br />We have gone to a lot of extra effort to make sure the chain will not come apart under normal use, some of which could easily be nullified by disassembly/reassembly as you are suggesting. We absolutely do not recommend tampering with the chain in any way. That said, if you decide to proceed with what you are suggesting, do your work on the unloaded end of the chain that is inside the frame, not the end that is attached to the handle.        Jon W <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Would there be a point to inserting a load cell at the unloaded end of the chain?<br /><br />Jon, do you recall how this was done using a Model A back in the mid 80's?<br /><br />Point taken regarding the danger of a catastrophic failure of the chain, I have heard people describe "breaking an erg", but fine it pretty hard to believe that there was not some contributing factor in that happening. Though you have been around long enough to litteraly have "seen it all". <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Paul,<br /><br />The load cell would still go between the chain and the handle, but I would shorten the chain at the unloaded end.<br /><br />Speaking of breaking an erg... I have been testing various methods to attach the load cell between the erg and the handle. One of which did indeed break when I pulled very hard on it (in the middle of about 30 strokes hard). I flew off the end of the erg and landed on my right butt-cheek. OUCH. Sciatica was unbelievable that night... my whole leg felt like a "funny bone" nightmare! I suppose it was better than landing on my coccyx (tail bone) which I'd probably have broken. Now I test stuff with an exercise mat behind the erg. <br /><br />-Kieran <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />OUCH!<br /><br />Giving this a bit more thought, attaching the load cell at the unloaded end may just work out, as it would give you the value for the Bungee tension, add that to the ErgMonitor Figure and away you go. May just save a few bodies also. How bi is this load cell? I'm envisioning something about the size of 2 or three links.<br /><br />Stay safe.

[[old] PaulS]

<!--QuoteBegin-c2jonw+Nov 21 2005, 01:44 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(c2jonw @ Nov 21 2005, 01:44 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Hi Paul,<br /><br />"Jon, do you recall how this was done using a Model A back in the mid 80's?"<br /><br />How what was done? Connecting the chain to the handle? There was a thru hole in the handle with a stainless steel sleeve, which also had a cross hole thru both walls. The chain was inserted in the sleeve, and a hardened pin was put thru the sleeve and chain. Pin and sleeve were then embedded in the handle with a couple whacks of a hammer.  We've come a ways from that method.....<br /><br />"Point taken regarding the danger of a catastrophic failure of the chain, I have heard people describe "breaking an erg", but fine it pretty hard to believe that there was not some contributing factor in that happening.  Though you have been around long enough to litteraly have "seen it all".  "<br /><br />Yes typically in the case of both ergs and oars there is a preexisting condition that leads to a catastrophic failure- unreported collisions or twisted chains come to mind......JonW <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Ooops, I wasn't specific enough. What I meant was, there were some researchers that used a Mod A and put a load cell in series with the chain to test the USA W4 specifically. I was wondering if you recalled how they did that, or perhaps they didn't ask for any assistance in doing it. As for the Orig Mod A connection to the Chain, I've still got one set up that way, also have the parts for the "upgrade" with the overlapping "toothed plates". That original Handle was huge compared to where we have evolved.<br /><br />BTW - You were spot on regarding the Patent Process, I just received the hard copy, issued Nov 2, 2005. I can't even remember when I began the process now.

[[old] kieran]

<!--QuoteBegin-PaulS+Nov 21 2005, 05:49 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Nov 21 2005, 05:49 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->OUCH!<br /><br />Giving this a bit more thought, attaching the load cell at the unloaded end may just work out, as it would give you the value for the Bungee tension, add that to the ErgMonitor Figure and away you go.  May just save a few bodies also.  How bi is this load cell?  I'm envisioning something about the size of 2 or three links.<br /><br />Stay safe. <br /> </td></tr></table><br />Paul,<br /><br />That's a good idea, but I don't think I'll go that route right now. It would be interesting though, if/when I had the time to tinker on things other than my thesis, to test our ideas about the ergmonitor output and the bungee force.<br /><br />(snip stuff that I decided better for an email... check your inbox)<br /><br />-Kieran

[[old] c2jonw]

<br />"Ooops, I wasn't specific enough. What I meant was, there were some researchers that used a Mod A and put a load cell in series with the chain to test the USA W4 specifically. I was wondering if you recalled how they did that, or perhaps they didn't ask for any assistance in doing it. "<br /><br /><br />Paul- Nope, sorry I don't have any recollection of that test or how they connected the load cell, though the Model A chain was so robust they could have gotten away with almost anything......Jon<br /><br /><br />"BTW - You were spot on regarding the Patent Process, I just received the hard copy, issued Nov 2, 2005. I can't even remember when I began the process now. "<br /><br />Told you so.........Jon<br />

[[old] Ikabob]

....I never thought about the possibility of a chain breaking during a row....how often does that happen on an untampered with chain??? Has it ever happened? It really could be catastrophic. ?????

[[old] c2jonw]

<!--QuoteBegin-Ikabob+Nov 22 2005, 03:18 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Ikabob @ Nov 22 2005, 03:18 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->....I never thought about the possibility of a chain breaking during a row....how often does that happen on an untampered with chain??? Has it ever happened? It really could be catastrophic.    ????? <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Ikabob- I don't know that it's ever happened on a properly maintained, unabused chain. Since we came out with the swivel connection for the Model C, which makes abuse more difficult to achieve, broken chains are a pretty rare occurence.....JonW<br />

[[old] Ikabob]

<!--QuoteBegin-c2jonw+Nov 22 2005, 08:27 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(c2jonw @ Nov 22 2005, 08:27 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Ikabob+Nov 22 2005, 03:18 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Ikabob @ Nov 22 2005, 03:18 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->....I never thought about the possibility of a chain breaking during a row....how often does that happen on an untampered with chain??? Has it ever happened? It really could be catastrophic.     ????? <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Ikabob- I don't know that it's ever happened on a properly maintained, unabused chain. Since we came out with the swivel connection for the Model C, which makes abuse more difficult to achieve, broken chains are a pretty rare occurence.....JonW <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br /><br /><br />That's what I thought. Thanks!

[[old] bgood]

In the back of my mind I always worried about the chain snapping on my model B (I do take good care of it). I didn't know about the swivel connector until I received my model D. I wouldn't pass my model B on to someone else without replacing the chain with the swivel connector. C2 should of had a safety recall on the chain, or at the very least sent out a safety alert letter. Maybe they did and I missed it?<br /><br />-Brad