Concept2 Forum

This has been a topic of discussion many times and often a contentious one, but I am optimistic that we can discus the issues without it becoming ‘personal’- (at least I live in hope). I have put the part in the title about ‘Indoor Rowing’ on purpose as that is what I would like to discuss.<br />: --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br />Probably the least contentious part of the equation ‘s10ps’ for me is the first ‘s’ which represents ‘strapless’ rowing:- I believe strapless rowing has a significant impact on my technique, primarily that section from about half way through the drive to half way through the recovery.<br /><br />On the drive without straps, timing and force applied with the arms/hands becomes more critical. If I don’t get it right, don’t sequence them, don’t apply enough force, then the only way I am going to stop myself taking a trip backwards at the end is to jam my heels down into the foot cups and it is going to be quickly evident not only through being uncomfortable but my hamstrings are soon going to give up the ghost. So given that maximum force/speed (of the fan) in the drive is derived from the legs, finishing well with the arms (when you are strapped in) really only reduces the rate of decline of the ‘force curve’ which signifies the slowing of the fan, hence if I slacken off with the arms I just don’t go as fast for my stroke rate. BUT if I am not strapped in and I drive strongly with my legs and slacken off with the arms …. I aint going to stop at the end of the slide – so no straps ensures that I maintain that sequence of effort, that co-ordination between lower and upper body on the drive portion of the stroke. An effort of the legs must be matched by the effort of the upper body, if I try to up the ante with the legs to compensate for less effort up top then I will be out of balance and maybe off the erg.<br /><br />Once the drive is over I have to get back to the start and with no straps I must also get this part of the stroke correct. Getting the hands away quickly and smoothly from the body begins the recovery process (reward momentum has already been halted by finishing the stroke strongly – imagine that the drive is like stepping backwards of a cliff and that the finish with the hands is like holding onto a rope that arrests your descent). The hands are followed by my body rocking over the hips (pressure is on my bum bones) in a continuous motion (no pause) and once my body has rocked forward, note ideally my arms are out straight, my legs break and I start to recover in a controlled manner up the slide. Yes I apply some force with my heels and use my hamstrings but it is not excessive.<br /><br />I don’t ever seem to have a surplus of energy to waste when I am rowing so by rowing strapless it quickly becomes evident if I have any areas in this portion of my stroke where it is being wasted. I am looking for a smooth transition from the 2nd half of the drive into the first half of the recovery – without wasting precious energy that I could be putting into my leg drive.<br />:-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br />10m per stroke is a tad more contentious (no kidding) but here is what it does for me (or will/could) It is interesting to note that if I ever manage to row a 2k in 6:20 at about 32spm (which is about right for me) then I will have rowed it at about 10m per stroke.<br /><br />If I row at a set distance per stroke then it fixes a ratio between drive time and recovery time no matter what the pace (as long as df does not change), I do not fully understand how in a way that I can explain here but I have read the rationale and it makes sense to me so that is good enough. This means that I am ‘training’ my body, ingraining a habit that will hopefully hold true when the pressure goes on. Muscles work joints move because nerves tell them to and I am developing a firing pattern that through practice become sub-conscious and that means less effort (mental and physical).<br /><br />The other key thing it does is that it forces me to increase the pace in a controlled manner when I up the rate, in other words (in training) I cannot trade rate for pace to make the stroke lighter – consistency of effort over all sessions and distances. Actually what it really does in my case is stops me from slowing down my rate by applying more force on the drive (keeping the pace the same) to give me a longer recovery which means more rest per stroke cycle. Doing so essentially turns each stroke into a mini interval, which is what a fixation on high SPI does in training, yes it can make me stronger but at the cost of a smoothly flowing stroke that easily transitioned into a higher rating one. When I use a fixed distance per stroke then as I go faster the SPI also increases, so to put extra demand on myself muscularly. To make myself stronger (strength wise) I just have to row faster – shorter work pieces at a faster pace and higher rate (so I am learning to move through the motion faster) and applying a stronger force to the handle.<br /><br />I think a key component that suits my psychology is that I can BENCHMARK the effort of every session one against the other as my meters per stroke does not change just rate does. <br />:-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br /><br />So that I hope is a long winded personal look at how s10ps applies to me. I have some grey areas naturally and questions such as to how it might (the 10m per stroke) be applied to someone like Graham Benton who obviously in a 2k is traveling at further (a lot) than 10ps, but then I am not GB so I only need to worry about me.<br /><br />George

Great post. This is your 3rd or 4th attempt lately to keep us discussing rowing, which is a good thing. I have been rowing 10mps more or less for several years. I agree with everything you say, and would add a few points:<br /><br />1) it is tempting to row strapless with a slower SR for long easy pieces, and then strap in for shorter intense interval sessions. Only recently when Paul made me do it, did I realize the value of rowing 10mps at higher SRs and more intense rowing. Rowing strapless at SR=28-29 really enforces the technique and really helps build strength on the recovery.<br /><br />2) Rowing 10mps imposes a discipline on every stroke you row; every stroke must be at a particular pace and with a maintained SR. This helps build consistency and mental focus.<br /><br />3) Controlling the distance you go per stroke makes perfect intuitive sense, but as I have posted before, SPI doesn't make sense to me. With SPI, the interesting numbers are the nominator and the denominator, how many watts you can produce and at what SR; once you do the division and express the number as SPI, it becomes meaningless by itself. SPI doesn't mean anything specifically, since it could be me rowing SR=10 at 200 watts, or Graham Benton's monster row of whatever that was.

Tks Michael, while I agree with all of your points the first 2 are really relevant. There IS no real reason why we cant row strapless at higher rates 'unless' we have weak points in our technique, and secondly the 10mps does require concentration.....<br /><br />.... concentration in my view that reinforces the neuromuscular benefits of the repetitive action and ratio.<br /><br />I am keen to hear how the big guns can utilise s10ps, it may be as simple as using a higher drag to make the drive more demanding, I am not sure on that one as I have enough of a challenge maintaining the effort thru to a 30+ sr for the duration of 2k<br /><br />George

Michael is right to be confused about SPI, especially in the way it has been abused by several prolific posters. It is meaningless on it's own and a completely relative term that must be put in context, so enough of that.<br /><br />I'm not sure how the 'big guns' use S10PS, but I can show you how one who uses it exclusively does. DF~105<br /><br />Since ratio remains the same, the Stroke will look pretty much the same regardless of Pace.<br /><br />Caution: Large file 629k (Probably better to right-click and Save as...) <a href="http://www.ps-sport.net/pictures/PvS_03 ... Rx_ani.gif" target="_blank">Rate and Pace?</a><br /><br />Cheers.

George:<br /><br />The problem with your post is that it's so complete, there isn't much to add.<br /><br /> <br /><br />Paul has just recently converted me to rowing strapless ... and I can feel everything you've shared, although I have lots of work to do strapless before it comes together better ... higher rate pieces would likely be a train wreck for me right now ... anything below 2:00 pace starts to see me get out of whack ... unable to hit the zeros, hold the pace, and not constantly being waiting (rushing the recovery slide back up the rail, I presume) or catching up (hands too slow as I "watch" the pace at the finish, I presume).<br /><br />I also find that there are some paces ... like 2:05 for example ... where I feel like I can get into a rhythm and hit the zeros time after time after time. However, 2:06 through 2:08, even though a slower pace, are a chore in this regard.<br /><br />Has anyone else experienced this phenomenon?<br /><br />-- Mark

<!--quoteo--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--quotec-->whack ... unable to hit the zeros, hold the pace, and not constantly being waiting (rushing the recovery slide back up the rail, I presume) or catching up (hands too slow as I "watch" the pace at the finish, I presume).<br /><br />I also find that there are some paces ... like 2:05 for example ... where I feel like I can get into a rhythm and hit the zeros time after time after time. However, 2:06 through 2:08, even though a slower pace, are a chore in this regard. </td></tr></table><br /><br />I found it became easier to concentrate on the 10s rather than trying to hit the zeros on the 1s. Each stroke advances the 10s digit by 1. The 10s digit always advances uniformly, while sometimes the single meters digit skips. I'm still looking at the single meters digit but not really thinking or acting on what I see.<br /><br />I've been using Rowpro also now, and sometimes set one of the graphs to DPS, and find it very easy to keep it on the 10 line. While talking to Paul in Boston a few weeks ago, he seemed to be saying the reflexes need to be trained to accomplish the proper stroke without involvement of the head (but he didn't put it quite like that) and I think he is correct.<br /><br />Ed

<!--quoteo(post=59032:date=Mar 11 2006, 12:20 PM:name=ebolton)--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(ebolton @ Mar 11 2006, 12:20 PM) </b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--quoteo--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--quotec-->whack ... unable to hit the zeros, hold the pace, and not constantly being waiting (rushing the recovery slide back up the rail, I presume) or catching up (hands too slow as I "watch" the pace at the finish, I presume).<br /><br />I also find that there are some paces ... like 2:05 for example ... where I feel like I can get into a rhythm and hit the zeros time after time after time. However, 2:06 through 2:08, even though a slower pace, are a chore in this regard. </td></tr></table><br /><br />I found it became easier to concentrate on the 10s rather than trying to hit the zeros on the 1s. Each stroke advances the 10s digit by 1. The 10s digit always advances uniformly, while sometimes the single meters digit skips. I'm still looking at the single meters digit but not really thinking or acting on what I see.<br /><br />I've been using Rowpro also now, and sometimes set one of the graphs to DPS, and find it very easy to keep it on the 10 line. While talking to Paul in Boston a few weeks ago, he seemed to be saying the reflexes need to be trained to accomplish the proper stroke without involvement of the head (but he didn't put it quite like that) and I think he is correct.<br /><br />Ed<br /> </td></tr></table><br />Ed:<br /><br />Interesting idea ... because I can't (or don't) think spatially, this simple change would not have occured to me if you hadn't brought it up. No wonder I was an engineering major rather than a creative writing major!<br /><br />Thanks, I want to give this a go next time ...<br /><br />Regards ... Mark

Regarding 10 mps, I have no problem with idea whatsoever; however, my major problem with it is that I can barely see the meters on my PM2 monitor. Partly, it's the lighting where my machine is but also the meters number is at the top and very small.<br /><br />The stroke rate is also small but it changes only once every 2 or 3 seconds and is a little easier to read than a constantly changing meters number right next to it. <br /><br />So I settle for watching watts which also changes every 2 or 3 seconds.<br /><br />Jim Pisano

<!--quoteo(post=58979:date=Mar 11 2006, 03:05 PM:name=michaelb)--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(michaelb @ Mar 11 2006, 03:05 PM) </b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Great post. This is your 3rd or 4th attempt lately to keep us discussing rowing, which is a good thing.<br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br /><br />The funny thing is (tho it is not really funny) that they generally die fairly quickly - guess most people only come here for the crap (they make constant post condeming the thread but dont bother with contributing to other threads) Still I appreciate the replies that people make and I get enjoyment out of the discussion and appreciate the knowledge that gets shared and the thoughts provoked as a result<br /><br />George

I have trouble hitting the 0s or any other number regularly when I was just using the PM display. But with rowpro, you have lane marker buoys every 10m, so I find it very enjoyable to settle into a rhythm of starting the drive as I come past the buoy. The broadcast camera has messed this all up for me, so I have to make the choice now.

<!--quoteo--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--quotec-->Ed:<br /><br />Interesting idea ... because I can't (or don't) think spatially, this simple change would not have occured to me if you hadn't brought it up. No wonder I was an engineering major rather than a creative writing major!<br /><br />Thanks, I want to give this a go next time ...<br /><br />Regards ... Mark </td></tr></table><br /><br />Hi Mark,<br /><br />I trained and practice as an engineer also- Mechanical. <br />Spatial thinking is very important. I work with lots of Electrical Engineers and Software engineers, some good and some not, and the best in those disciplines have some of it going on even if they don't realize it or admit it publicly. I think engineering- fundamentally applied science- is best practiced with some understanding of spatial relationships in any disciplne.<br /><br />Sorry to rant off-topic; it's pet peeve of mine.<br /><br />Regards,<br /><br />Ed

<!--quoteo(post=59011:date=Mar 12 2006, 02:58 AM:name=PaulS)--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Mar 12 2006, 02:58 AM) </b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><br />I'm not sure how the 'big guns' use S10PS, but I can show you how one who uses it exclusively does. DF~105<br /><br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br /><br />Paul I guess what I am wondering is that for someone who can row 5:50 pace at 32spm they are pulling nearly 11mps so if they were doing race pace intervals would you have them rating higher to maintain the 10mps. For me and most this is never going to be an issue but I guess for some people it is.<br /><br />George<br /><br />ps I wont give away the secret on your rate and pace question tho it sure proves a point

<!--quoteo(post=59056:date=Mar 11 2006, 01:45 PM:name=george nz)--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(george nz @ Mar 11 2006, 01:45 PM) </b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Paul I guess what I am wondering is that for someone who can row 5:50 pace at 32spm they are pulling nearly 11mps so if they were doing race pace intervals would you have them rating higher to maintain the 10mps. For me and most this is never going to be an issue but I guess for some people it is.<br /><br />George<br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />That would depend on what my goal with them was, but if it were to make them faster, they eventually are going to have to learn to accomplish the recovery a bit more quickly. Graham Benton is a unique example of very high drive force, but appears to have trouble with the recovery which is a limitting factor at this point. He has maintained a high DPS and is going at race pace. Most will have fallen to 10 or below when going to race pace. I think Graham is also working on improving as an OTW rower, and if he is planning on doing anything other than the 1x it is inevitable that higher Stroke rates will be in his future and learning to do them gradually using S10PS would be something I would recommend.<br />

Thanks George for bringing up this topic!<br /><br />I have long been converted to the virtues of rowing strapless. I am not so sure regarding the 10mps, and I don't see how I could reconcile that with the Wolverine Plan, especially the Level 4, which is the foundation part of the plan. I am currently doing the L4 at 12.7mps, the L3 at about 11.7, the L2 at 10.7 and the L1 at around 9.5 mps. Of course those mps will increase as I get faster! Only the L1 will get close to 10mps.<br /><br />Last December, I did my hour row strapless at 24 spm and 11.14 mps, which resulted in a huge improvement relative to my previous PB done at 27 spm and 9.7 mps. It was the L4 and L3 workouts of the WP, done at more than 10mps, that made the difference.<br /><br />Just my 2 cents! <br /><br />Cheers!<br /><br />Francois

I think the 10m idea is important in at least two cases: for beginners, as it says clearly that the object of the exercise is to move the boat so now go 10m as a minimum but attainable standard, and for racing where it says that however desperate we are, efficiency still counts: a cut-off point, beyond which higher ratings and shorter travel would lead us into diminishing returns. <br /><br />In both cases it gives coach plenty of shore-side candidates. When boats are expensive and in short supply, he can't just load them up, shove off and see what happens, so the tighter the prior erg benchmarks the better. He stays warmer and dryer too. Style comes later, let's start by weeding out those who won't or can't pull.<br /><br />That we have to move the boat is not immediately clear on the erg, so someone some day has to say it. Recently in a hotel I saw a PM3 memory, where the last 20 "work-outs" were all < 50W, rating 30... <br /><br />Looking at training plans, whether I, W, Gold, or Xeno, they say that 90%+ of work is done at 18-22. <br />10m/st at these ratings mean pace 2:50 to 2:15; 75 to 140W. Most of us could do these pace/rating combinations not just strapless but slideless too, and would not think of them as "training". I'd be glad to, any excuse for not pulling hard is a good one, I just have to convince myself. Even in my decrepit old age I pull 11 to 12 m/st @20 for 30-40' without my HR going over 150. Nothing wrong with this: 10 is a minimum, and I don't think coach will throw me out because I moved the boat too far. But surprise surprise he would if he had plenty of candidates who moved it even further.<br /><br />When I raced 2ks, albeit slowly, my time was around 7:10 @27-28: 200 strokes, 10m/st. My Wattage was 270-280W: 10W-minutes/stroke. At the time I'd never heard of either index. <br /><br />Then we start going where angels fear to tread. I'm 188*90kg*65y. Should I tell others with different coordinates to do what I do? We all have our standards, and if our personal ones have worked in the past, why not? We can always break the rules when the need arises.