The Rhythm Of The Rowing Stroke

[old] ranger · Post by **[old] ranger** » December 29th, 2005, 5:58 pm

If you listen up in conversations and writing about rowing, quite a bit gets said (in vague ways?) about the rhythm of the rowing stroke. I had to spend a lot of time in the car over the last few days, and I passed much of the time by thinking about this issue. I have come to some conclusions, but I would be fascinated to know what others think before I share my thoughts. So, here's the question: What is the rhythm of the rowing stroke? What kinds of rhythmic forms/processes are relevant and in what shapes exactly? PaulS? You should have something to say about this one. As many talk about rhythm, four things seems to go (simultaneously) into the organization of a full rhythmic form, what musicians call (1) meter, (2) grouping, (3) prolongation, and (4) theme. Meter is beating, measuring. Grouping is phrasing, movement in and around peaks of interest/effort. Prolongation is goal-oriented motion, connected, implicational movement from structural beginnings to structural endings. And theme involves patterning, however various and discontionuously distributed ("theme-and-variation," etc.). Meter is cyclical. Grouping is centered/vertical. Prolongation is linear. Theme is non-linear/relative. Given this generous/full notion of rhythm, we might ask things like this, I think: What is the meter of the rowing stroke? How does it beat? How are are the major events in the rowing stroke grouped/phrased? Where does the rowing stroke begin and end and how does it move in a connected (anticipatory or extensional) way between these points? And how densely and variously are the major rhythmic forms in the rowing stroke patterned? Of course, if we can get at each of these questions, we can then ask how these four forms are integrated. For instance, when grouping/phrasing is out of phase with meter, a rhythmic form becomes syncopated. So we might ask about things like this: Is rowing syncopated or more smoothly in phase? Prolongation is actional, and in something like rowing, which is so dominantly actional, we might expect that this sort or linear motion would be very prominent. But where prolongation is out of phrase with meter and grouping, the latter might be weakened and not very salient. So we might ask about things like this: Are meter and grouping/phrasing very important in rowing, or does action and therefore prolongational movement dominate so fully that they are really insignificant? ranger

[old] H_2O · Post by **[old] H_2O** » December 30th, 2005, 12:20 pm

Why do you intimidate us with this ocean of academic verbiage and complicated jargon? There is no use to articulate a theory of the rowing stroke since all the essentials are beyond language to express. There are scores of rower who row well but cannot say how they do it. A good analogy would be the swimming stroke. You have been a swimmer. Have you ever picked up a book on swimming such as "Swimming Faster"? There is every effort to analyze the swimming stroke with word and picture. But as a swimmer you have to laugh because all these words and pictures won't make you change one thing in your stroke and if you look at swimming videos you see that there is a huge variation in technique all leading to similar times. I firmly believe that a swimmer develops with only rough guidelines from the coach and all finetuning by feel only.

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » December 30th, 2005, 12:40 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(ranger @ Dec 29 2005, 01:58 PM)</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>PaulS? You should have something to say about this one. ranger </td></tr></table> Really? Why? (At least to any greater extent than has already been expressed by myself or others.)

[old] ranger · Post by **[old] ranger** » December 30th, 2005, 12:57 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>A good analogy would be the swimming stroke. You have been a swimmer. Have you ever picked up a book on swimming such as "Swimming Faster"? </td></tr></table> It would have been hard for me not to. My father invented the field of study. ranger

[old] ranger · Post by **[old] ranger** » December 30th, 2005, 1:01 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Why do you intimidate us with this ocean of academic verbiage and complicated jargon? </td></tr></table> Academic veriage and complicated jargon? It's just rhythmic description. Just about everything is rhythmic. Why not have ways of talking about it? If you have other ways, that's fine. But you don't seem to. You just don't want to talk about it at all, quite a different matter. The rowing stroke is _massively_ rhythmic. Achievement in rowing, it seems, has a lot to do with getting a feel for this rhythm. ranger

[old] ranger · Post by **[old] ranger** » December 30th, 2005, 1:32 pm

No takers on this? O.K. Here's a start. Once, I started wondering why we call erging "pulling" rather than "pushing." In the rowing stroke, the legs are the most important levers, and in the drive of the stroke, the legs push rather than pull. So what's up? Well, it occurred to me. Maybe this is a rhythmic thing. For instance, for me, I feel the arm pull in the rowing stroke as the major "downbeat" in the meter of the rowing stroke. For instance, if I am rowing in a 4-beat measure, I say "1" on the arm pull and go from there. Being a very physical affair, rowing is highly metrical (meter is the most physical component of rhythm), and in a meter, the downbeat is the most important and salient event. In a metrical measure, downbeats occur first and everything else winds down regularly from there (until the next downbeat), usually with the beating alternating and declining in strength. This thing about the arm pull and downbeats has interesting consequences, I think. For instance, since the arm pull is the _last_ gesture in the drive, and the drive is the major action in the stroke, in rowing, the _end_ of the stroking action is the beginning of the stroke's measure. This makes most of the drive a build up of rhythmic energy, an up-beating anacrusis, to the arm pull; and of course, this is exactly what it feels like in certain ways. That is, the various gestures in the stroke that precede the arm pull (for me, (1) the drive off the balls of my feet with my legs, (2) the setting of my heels and the beginning of the lift with my back, (3) the peak of the stroke when the legs and back are at top speed, and (4) the finish with the legs) occur on/within the _last_ quarter of the 4-beat measure, and (for) being just four actions, form a sub-measure of their own: -----------drive---------------/-----------------recovery------------------------- --4------------------------1--------------------2-----------------3--------------->> --1----2-----3-----4---arms--2----3----4---1----2---3---4---1----2----3---4 toes-heels-back-legs This little sub-measure, then, building up to the arms, can also be metrical, and in a very nice way. The arm pull is not the strongest part of the drive, but in some ways in has a very high salience, perhaps because of the sweeping motion of the oars as they go to the finish and because of the power of the rowing stroke, which is concentrated in the drive and then depends for its effectiveness on a tranfer of energy to the run of the boat (until the next drive). ranger

[old] raymond botha · Post by **[old] raymond botha** » December 30th, 2005, 1:41 pm

Hi Ranger, I come from a cycling background and noticed, comparitively speaking, how un-rythmic erging felt. I was used to maintaining a pace with my ham's whilst using the quads to accelerate. Guess what happened when I converted to the erg , my SPM was heigh and my MPS(meters per stroke ?) were low. It has taken a lot of work to understand that the quadrant had changed . In training I have taken to Paul Smith's advice to lower the DF and concentrate on the speed of the pull . Whilst relaxing on the return. Having said this I recognise that unless some sort of ryhtm is maintained the movement is too conscious as H 20 sais and you loose the advantage of feel in order to tweak the stroke. Rythmic ? I'm battling with this one . It seems a lot easier to imagine in a sport where you're going in the same direction all the time like running etc. I'm sure you've have further thoughts on this yourself Perhaps analysing a jack-hammer would be give a better analogy over musical repertoire. If there's a rythm in erging I've yet to find it . The only point of reference I have in the stroke is the beggining of another one I'm sure the motion of rowing on water is a different story altogeather. Regards ray

[old] ranger · Post by **[old] ranger** » December 30th, 2005, 1:50 pm

I don't know whether this is right technically, but when I row now, I also like to consider the recovery of the hands as part of the rhythm of the drive, perhaps just because it makes my hands faster at this point, but also because I don't really feel myself catching my backward momentum and moving forward on the recovery until my hands are away. So adding this quick recovery of the hands to the five sub-beats/pulses that we have already noted in the drive, this gives the drive (for me) six parts, each performed on a metrical pulse, before I start feeling as though I am recovering and moving back up the slide. -----------drive------------------------/-----------------recovery------------------------- --4------------------------1--------------------2-----------------3-------------------->> --1----2-----3-----4---arms--hands----3----4---1----2---3---4---1----2----3---4 toes-heels-back-legs One interesting consequency of the meter I am claiming here is that it might explain why the standard racing ratio is 1.5-to-1 or thereabouts, 60-40. In the 4-beat meter as a whole, there are 16 beats, with six of those beats devoted to the drive and 10 of those beats devoted to the recovery. This ratio is very close to 1.5-to-1, about 1.7-to-1. At race pace, are the best rowers locked into a four-beat measure? Maybe so! At race pace, this is how I am rowing now. ranger

[old] raymond botha · Post by **[old] raymond botha** » December 30th, 2005, 1:50 pm

You know having thought about this a bit more I would have to say that a sense of balance in the abdominal area would come closest to any sort of rythm to speak of , especially over longer distances , it becomes a point of focus whilst everything fades into the background.

[old] hjs · Post by **[old] hjs** » December 30th, 2005, 1:54 pm

[quote=ranger,Dec 30 2005, 06:32 PM] No takers on this? O.K. Here's a start. Once, I started wondering why we call erging "pulling" rather than "pushing." In the rowing stroke, the legs are the most important levers, and in the drive of the stroke, the legs push rather than pull. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It is called pulling cos we hold the oar in our hands en make a move towards our body. We push during the recovery but that's not the main movement. The pushing of the legs is not to push ourselfs away but to pull the oars. So pulling it is.

[old] raymond botha · Post by **[old] raymond botha** » December 30th, 2005, 1:55 pm

Ranger , I think Ergmonitor is what will answer those questions for you. The whole aspect of ratio for optimum performance delivery is a fasinating one. I need to ask Paul if my IBM T40 will work with it.

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » December 30th, 2005, 2:12 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(raymond botha @ Dec 30 2005, 09:55 AM)</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Ranger , I think Ergmonitor is what will answer those questions for you. The whole aspect of ratio for optimum performance delivery is a fasinating one. I need to ask Paul if my IBM T40 will work with it. </td></tr></table> Hi Raymond, Many people are running on Laptops, the main criteria being the OS of Windows Xp. Anyway, the trial is free, though some cables will need to be purchased (however in my "trials", I was always able to return the bits that I eventually did not require as long as I kept the packaging in nice condition.) I think the phrase "Different Strokes for Different folks" (unless in a team boat) is most applicable in this thread. Ranger has obviously had Erging success at a ratio that would not be suitable in a boat, and appears to be expecting further success now that he has made some changes in the direction of a more boat-like stroke. All he's got to do is execute at this point. There is plenty of research to dig up, but unfortunately it has failed to define the "golden ratio" as of yet, we can make some good guesses, but apparently the absolute declaration of a value is something that even the most competent will not do at this time.

[old] ranger · Post by **[old] ranger** » December 30th, 2005, 2:36 pm

O.K. Here is another thing. It is also clear that there are some major binary rhythms in the rowing stroke, in all of its rhythmic components, but especially with meter. The major binary rhythm, of course, is drive and recovery. On the other hand, what we have just sketched about the odd relation of the meter of the rowing stroke to the drive and recovery is food for thought on this issue. If, metrically, the stroke starts at the arm pull, then what happens to the binary rhythm of drive and recovery? Clearly, this isn't a metrical matter, or at least a straight-forward one. It is primarily a matter of the other rhythmic components: grouping, prolongation, and theme. I suppose that's a little odd in itself. Well, again, I don't know if others do this sort of thing, but binary alternatiion is catching. If you have it in one place in a rhythmic structure you often get it in other places, or if you have the option, try to get it in other places, even if you don't have it. So it occurs to me... Why not find the metrical figure for the drive in the reovery and make these a binary pair? One way to do this would be to start this shadowy metrical echo of the drive on the second beat of the measure, after a little two pulse gap. This would also leave a little two pulse gap before the onset of the drive on the 4th beat of the measure. Like so: -----------drive----------------------/-----------------recovery--------------------------------- --4-------------------------1-------------------------2------------------------3-------------------->> --1----2-----3-----4------1-----2------3----4-----1----2------3-----4-----1----2------3----4 toes-heels-back-legs-arms-hands-rest-rest--toes-heels-back-legs-arms-hands-rest-rest I suppose you could label this echo of the drive in terms of what you are recovering at that time (e.g., arms, back, legs), but I haven't been doing this yet. I like this recovery of duple motion, though, now as a part of grouping/phrasing, to regain a sense of the very salient alternation of drive and recovery, but now without losing track of the meter. Separated by two instances of pairs of pulses, this grouping starts to be multiply binary, too. The paired drives and rests are binary and the rests/metrical spaces between the drives themselves are binary. /xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx\ /xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx\/xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx\ / xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx\/xxxxxxx\/xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx\/xxxxxxx\ --1----2-----3-----4-------1-------2----3----4-----1----2------3-----4-----1------2------3----4 toes-heels-back-legs--arms--hands-rest-rest--toes-heels-back-legs-arms-hands-rest-rest For what it's worth, there are other advantages to this rhythmic structure, too. For instance, the direction of the binary motion is clearly falling within groups, with the little rests being weaker than the drives, however shadowy and illusory they might be, and with the recovery echo of the drive being weaker than the drive itself. The first pulse of each rest is also stronger in a phrasal way that the second pulsee of each rest, because it is on a stronger beat in the meter. All of this falling duple motion in phrasing helps stabilize the rhythmic organization. /xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx\ ------------------------------strong------------------------------------weak------------------------ /xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx\/xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx\ -----------------strong------------------weak-----------------------strong------------------weak--- / xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx\/xxxxxxx\/xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx\/xxxxxxx\ xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxstrong-weakxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxstrong-weak xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx/xx\/xx\xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx/xx\/xx\ --1----2-----3-----4-------1-------2----3----4-----1----2------3-----4-----1------2------3----4 toes-heels-back-legs--arms--hands-rest-rest--toes-heels-back-legs-arms-hands-rest-rest I also like the fact that the last little two-beat rest/metrical space occurs just where you want to be maximally relaxed before the onset of the drive. ranger

[old] ranger · Post by **[old] ranger** » December 30th, 2005, 2:43 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> It is called pulling cos we hold the oar in our hands en make a move towards our body. </td></tr></table> But the arms are only engaged (move toward the body) at the _end_ of the drive. The rest of the drive, importantly, 4/5 of the first part of it at least, is made without pulling the oar toward our body at all. It is made by pushing off from the footplate with the legs, sliding back on the rail, and lifting with the back. ranger

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » December 30th, 2005, 2:45 pm

Okay, since we're on to the ridiculous. To the tune of "Row, row, row your boat" Row, row, row your boat Swiftly as you please..... Knees, Sternum, Elbows... Elbows - Sternum - Knees Repeat as required.

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The Rhythm Of The Rowing Stroke

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