Strength Vs. Endurance?

[old] remador · Post by **[old] remador** » December 9th, 2005, 12:48 pm

Hi, there! I've been working, in the last months, only to be fit enough to START competing in a suitable way. I stopped rowing for about 12 years and, now, I've been training for about a year and a half. I've been working hard also on weights, and I think am pretty strong, by now and for my age and weight. I can pull a 100kg barbell bent over row, or squat 200kg. So, I think it's time to improve the endurance side of my program (allready with a good volume). Mainly, I'll be erging and, sometimes, running. So, my question for debate is this: should I leave the heavy weights and focus only in strength-endurance? Is there any way of keeping my rowing strength high doing less, or even no weights at all? Will I be throwing away my strength gains? I think I am getting back to basic questions, here, but it's time to choose the best strategy to get my times lower - for 17-18 months, I've been just re-building the foundantions that my 12 years stop broke down. AM

[old] Ray79 · Post by **[old] Ray79** » December 9th, 2005, 1:08 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(remador @ Dec 9 2005, 11:48 AM)</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>should I leave the heavy weights and focus only in strength-endurance? </td></tr></table> Simple answer to this IMHO is yes. I believe that strength-endurance is one of the most important aspects of rowing. Being able to apply pressure consistently during the 200 or so strokes it takes to complete a 2km (or the 500 for a 5km scary when it is put like that) Lower weights, high number of reps and plenty of time on the erg for your aerobic capacity would be good. Occasional sessions of slightly higher weights would probably not be a bad idea, just so you can be sure that you are not "throwing away strength gains" as you put it. Not sure if it would be possible to totally eliminate the weights from your current program.

[old] remador · Post by **[old] remador** » December 9th, 2005, 1:13 pm

Thanks, Ray. About the number of strokes: that's why I keep screaming when, during a test, it comes to my mind to count the strokes... About my question, I think you're right abou endurance. What I am thinking, though, is if it's possible to keep, for example, the strength in my legs doing much less weights. At the moment, OTOH, I think I am not going to leave completely resistance training. I like the variety it introduces. I prefer to alter it's form. AM

[old] remador · Post by **[old] remador** » December 9th, 2005, 1:20 pm

Being more specific: usually, we think of ST muscle fibers as highly suited for endurance work, and FT as highly suited for high tension work. Nevertheless, I think, according to what, e.g., Stephen Seiler says, that is possible for ST fibers to generate high tension, namely if the overall movement is slow. So, maybe it is possible to use a lot your ST fibers in resistance training. When it comes to think about a training program, this has implications: maybe I can do some heavy weights workouts without compromising my endurance, and maybe I can work both my muscular endurance and my strength in the same workout (e.g., while doing a long row). I don't know if this makes sense, but I suspect it might make and, if so, it could be advantageous to re-think some stuff. AM

[old] hjs · Post by **[old] hjs** » December 9th, 2005, 1:32 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(remador @ Dec 9 2005, 06:20 PM)</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Being more specific: usually, we think of ST muscle fibers as highly suited for endurance work, and FT as highly suited for high tension work. Nevertheless, I think, according to what, e.g., Stephen Seiler says, that is possible for ST fibers to generate high tension, namely if the overall movement is slow. So, maybe it is possible to use a lot your ST fibers in resistance training. When it comes to think about a training program, this has implications: maybe I can do some heavy weights workouts without compromising my endurance, and maybe I can work both my muscular endurance and my strength in the same workout (e.g., while doing a long row). I don't know if this makes sense, but I suspect it might make and, if so, it could be advantageous to re-think some stuff. AM </td></tr></table> Remador. around the year 2000 I rowed for a couple of years on the erg. During the winter My focus was not on the heavy weights but I never let in down. During summer I used quit heave weights. I rowed 1 k 2.56 2k 6.14 30 min 8700 en my benchpress was above 140 kg. I rowed 3/4 times a week never more than 25/30 k. and most interval 3 x1500 5 x 1000 1 x 500 all on hartrate. my weight was 96 during the winter en around 100 during summer. height 1.86 So it is possible i think. Most rowers are not strong enough is my opinion. about your squat. I think you are doing 90 degrees, you should do full squats. henry

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » December 9th, 2005, 1:34 pm

Individual movement strength, while it needs to be adequate, is much less important the the coordinated force production that is required in rowing. i.e. No one at a regatta/ergatta is going to challenge you to a bench pull contest. I've completely regained a high strength level by training on the Erg and in a boat after taking about 9 years off of any consistent weight trainning (1992-2001 when career obligations got in the way, along with laziness). The first day back on the Erg (after nearly 17 years away from rowing 1984-2001, except the very infrequent trials to see if an injury had healed) was a 5k @ 2:12 that I though was going to kill me. Two years of training on the Erg paid full dividends (pretty much 5 x 10k per week, <40 minutes/day). There were the occassional short intervals to "feed the monster", but those were just a diversion as the Strength/Endurance was being built together. Erg and do some Push-ups to keep the chest from caving in, keep technique sound and you will be on a good track to progress.

[old] hjs · Post by **[old] hjs** » December 9th, 2005, 1:41 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(PaulS @ Dec 9 2005, 06:34 PM)</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Individual movement strength, while it needs to be adequate, is much less important the the coordinated force production that is required in rowing. i.e. No one at a regatta/ergatta is going to challenge you to a bench pull contest. I've completely regained a high strength level by training on the Erg and in a boat after taking about 9 years off of any consistent weight trainning (1992-2001 when career obligations got in the way, along with laziness). The first day back on the Erg (after nearly 17 years away from rowing 1984-2001, except the very infrequent trials to see if an injury had healed) was a 5k @ 2:12 that I though was going to kill me. Two years of training on the Erg paid full dividends (pretty much 5 x 10k per week, <40 minutes/day). There were the occassional short intervals to "feed the monster", but those were just a diversion as the Strength/Endurance was being built together. Erg and do some Push-ups to keep the chest from caving in, keep technique sound and you will be on a good track to progress. </td></tr></table> my first time on a erg was a 2 k I scored 6.38.9 . Doing strenghttraining like most people do in the gym has nothing to do with training at all. They are just leazie and dont push themselves. And the way talk about benchpulling ???????????????? means you know much about it. You don,t need it fot rowing. But it doesn,t hurt you either. be strong and have a good endurence

[old] remador · Post by **[old] remador** » December 9th, 2005, 1:45 pm

hjs, Yes, I sometimes do some full squats, but rarely. Don't know how much I would manage to cope with. PaulS, Thanks, that's the kind of answer I was expecting to have, here. Since there is no thorough theory (that I know), self-experience (of someone who is well experienced) is the best help. That's one reason more for me to try the ERG approach. AM

[old] mpukita · Post by **[old] mpukita** » December 9th, 2005, 1:59 pm

This is an interesting question. I am certainly not an accomplished rower, and also not an accomplished strength training coach, so I look at this from the somewhat simple perspective of what do athletes in other sports, where similar strength vs. endurance is required, do in this regard? I want to copy the most successful people in the sport to model for similar success. I was a distance runner long ago. For a 2K (rowing) race, at anywhere from just under 6:00 to 8:20, where most accomplished racers fall, no matter what age category they are, I'd liken this to someone who runs the 1,500 meters or mile. We did just about zero weight or strength training. I've tried to keep up with training for middle-distance runners, and there is not much weight training in most of their programs (from what I can glean). Lots of distance work, lots of intervals, lots of stretching, and that's about it. Maybe I'm out of tough here, so if you have better knowledge, please share it. I used to ride quite a bit when younger, doing 10 to 25 mile time trails, but do not know much about the track events. Maybe one of you who do could comment on the training done for a track event that might be comparable, with the kind of consistent full output for a similar time period, that would be comparable to rowing. I realize there is a big difference in stroke (arms, legs, back), vs. stride (just legs) vs. cadence (just legs), but I'm trying to determine if any of the somewhat comparable sports do much weight-based strength training, or what kind of strength training they do that is not pure running, or biking. I guess swimming would also be very comparable to rowing ... almost forgot about it. I know nothing about swimming training, other than they seem to swim quite a bit! Francois??? My initial impression would be that there is not much strength training done by any of the top athletes in these sports (that is not specific to doing the sport ... i.e. weight training, plyometrics, etc.), but I could be very wrong.

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » December 9th, 2005, 2:00 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(hjs @ Dec 9 2005, 09:41 AM)</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(PaulS @ Dec 9 2005, 06:34 PM)</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Individual movement strength, while it needs to be adequate, is much less important the the coordinated force production that is required in rowing. i.e. No one at a regatta/ergatta is going to challenge you to a bench pull contest. I've completely regained a high strength level by training on the Erg and in a boat after taking about 9 years off of any consistent weight trainning (1992-2001 when career obligations got in the way, along with laziness). The first day back on the Erg (after nearly 17 years away from rowing 1984-2001, except the very infrequent trials to see if an injury had healed) was a 5k @ 2:12 that I though was going to kill me. Two years of training on the Erg paid full dividends (pretty much 5 x 10k per week, <40 minutes/day). There were the occassional short intervals to "feed the monster", but those were just a diversion as the Strength/Endurance was being built together. Erg and do some Push-ups to keep the chest from caving in, keep technique sound and you will be on a good track to progress. </td></tr></table> my first time on a erg was a 2 k I scored 6.38.9 . Doing strenghttraining like most people do in the gym has nothing to do with training at all. They are just leazie and dont push themselves. And the way talk about benchpulling ???????????????? means you know much about it. You don,t need it fot rowing. But it doesn,t hurt you either. be strong and have a good endurence </td></tr></table> Bench pulling can hurt you, people have caused stress fractures to their ribs. This is why I much prefer single arm dumbell rows using the off arm for support on a bench to avoid excessive back strain. On another subject, are you going to go and yell at Mr. Dalsem to help get a good race this weekend?

[old] hjs · Post by **[old] hjs** » December 9th, 2005, 2:06 pm

[quote=remador,Dec 9 2005, 06:45 PM] hjs, Yes, I sometimes do some full squats, but rarely. Don't know how much I would manage to cope with. Full squats are much more more usefull for rowing then half quats and not so demanding for your back. Just start with a realetive low weight and increese graduely. Keep the reps at 10/12 4 sets. Focus on good techniek en keep someone behind you for safety.

[old] hjs · Post by **[old] hjs** » December 9th, 2005, 2:13 pm

Bench pulling can hurt you, people have caused stress fractures to their ribs. This is why I much prefer single arm dumbell rows using the off arm for support on a bench to avoid excessive back strain. On another subject, are you going to go and yell at Mr. Dalsem to help get a good race this weekend? [/quote] yes I will be there. About the benchpress. I think we are talking about a different exercise. Try google

are you competing too tomorrow? And if you do in witch cat.

[old] ljwagner · Post by **[old] ljwagner** » December 9th, 2005, 2:13 pm

Remador, On your 100 kg bent row and 200 kg squat, is that a 1 rep maximum, or can you do a set of any kind ? If it is a 1 rep max, it is a poor indicator of what you can muster for a 200+ stroke row. Erging at 18-20 spm, you have about a 2 sec rest prior to the next drive. Moving iron does give some indication of potential erg power, but only when doing 8-10 sets of 10-12 reps. All reps good. It will be well below your max, but rowing 5 minute plus is not about max pull on 1 stroke either. Iron gives you numbers to use to know if your strength is increasing, but it is separate from the erg. If your iron moving numbers go up, and erg times improve, then you have a beneficial activity. Don't neglect low back, and ab work. Muscle balance. Lifting weights helps develop muscles not used a lot rowing. Be careful to not overtrain.

[old] Ray79 · Post by **[old] Ray79** » December 9th, 2005, 2:15 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(mpukita @ Dec 9 2005, 12:59 PM)</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>This is an interesting question. I am certainly not an accomplished rower, and also not an accomplished strength training coach, so I look at this from the somewhat simple perspective of what do athletes in other sports, where similar strength vs. endurance is required, do in this regard? I want to copy the most successful people in the sport to model for similar success. I was a distance runner long ago. For a 2K (rowing) race, at anywhere from just under 6:00 to 8:20, where most accomplished racers fall, no matter what age category they are, I'd liken this to someone who runs the 1,500 meters or mile. We did just about zero weight or strength training. I've tried to keep up with training for middle-distance runners, and there is not much weight training in most of their programs (from what I can glean). Lots of distance work, lots of intervals, lots of stretching, and that's about it. Maybe I'm out of tough here, so if you have better knowledge, please share it. I used to ride quite a bit when younger, doing 10 to 25 mile time trails, but do not know much about the track events. Maybe one of you who do could comment on the training done for a track event that might be comparable, with the kind of consistent full output for a similar time period, that would be comparable to rowing. I realize there is a big difference in stroke (arms, legs, back), vs. stride (just legs) vs. cadence (just legs), but I'm trying to determine if any of the somewhat comparable sports do much weight-based strength training, or what kind of strength training they do that is not pure running, or biking. I guess swimming would also be very comparable to rowing ... almost forgot about it. I know nothing about swimming training, other than they seem to swim quite a bit! Francois??? My initial impression would be that there is not much strength training done by any of the top athletes in these sports (that is not specific to doing the sport ... i.e. weight training, plyometrics, etc.), but I could be very wrong. </td></tr></table> The difference with rowing and running Mark is that in running you only have to carry your own weight, something we all do every day just walking around. In rowing you have the weight of the boat as well. This extra resistance IMHO requires a certain amount of weight training of the strength-endurance type mentioned above. The ergo is a good representation of a boats performance and gives the extra resistance, so it is very possible that various workouts on the erg can give you sufficient extra strength and your times will undoubtedly improve. Its is just a simple fact that rowers often do weights to improve their strength endurance, and transfer this to the ergo in addition to their long distances intervals etc. I have only been rowing for 2 years so I would never claim to be an expert or even experienced, but any coaches I have had have encouraged strength-endurance weight training as part of a full training program for OTW performance. And in that I always hope that swimming training will never come into it Maybe PaulS will have some input to your comments about other sports. I was never much of a runner after I left primary school. And my most recent sport before rowing was kick boxing. Not really comparable I have less chance of being knocked out in a boat......

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » December 9th, 2005, 2:42 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(hjs @ Dec 9 2005, 10:13 AM)</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> yes I will be there. About the benchpress. I think we are talking about a different exercise. Try google

are you competing too tomorrow? And if you do in witch cat. </td></tr></table> Oh, we are confusing "Bench Press" and "Bench Pull", nearly exact opposites. I agree that Bench Press will not hurt, and in fact should be done (or Push-ups, press-ups) to balance the chest from all of the rowing. I won't be there, as I am in the USA, but WD is a friend, and I thought you might know him as I had heard about you, and confirmed that you were his friend when talking with him today. He will be surprised that you and I have talked here.

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