Beginner Needing Help!
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Background: <br /><br />I've recently started using the C2 rowing machines in the hopes of getting back in shape and possibly joining my uni's (recreational) boat club in the spring. I'm male, 24 years old, 172 lbs, and 5'10".<br /><br />I had a personal trainer at the gym demonstrate the rowing technique, and she didn't find any problems with my form, but I doubt she's an expert. I've also been looking at some of the row cycles posted on this forum and the animation on the C2 website for tips on proper form.<br /><br />Problem:<br /><br />My personal best thus far is 5470 meters in 30 minutes. Admittedly, I'm a little out of shape. However, looking at the online rankings and the times posted on this forum, my personal best is a really poor performance.<br /><br />I'm usually at 24-26 s/m, damper setting at 3 or 4. My average watts are also low, at 60-70...I can't seem to break 80.<br /><br />Also, I tried going strapless--my power (measured in watts) was cut to around 40-45, and my s/m to 19.<br /><br />Am I more out of shape than I think? Using the wrong technique? Or is this normal enough for a beginner?<br />
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<!--QuoteBegin-Dandy54+Nov 9 2005, 09:26 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Dandy54 @ Nov 9 2005, 09:26 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><br />I had a personal trainer at the gym demonstrate the rowing technique, and she didn't find any problems with my form, but I doubt she's an expert. I've also been looking at some of the row cycles posted on this forum and the animation on the C2 website for tips on proper form.<br /><br />...<br /><br />My personal best thus far is 5470 meters in 30 minutes. Admittedly, I'm a little out of shape. However, looking at the online rankings and the times posted on this forum, my personal best is a really poor performance. </td></tr></table><br /><br />That time comes out at around 2:36 pace (most folks discuss pace/rate on here rather than watts/rate).<br /><br />I suspect you're doing too much with your arms and not enough with your legs. Think of it as pushing the machine away with the legs rather than pulling the handle with your arms. This is bound to be a technique issue.<br /><br />I was rowing what started as a 60' 15K attempt (which turned into 3*5K with 1:00 rests for water and took over an hour) yesterday. <br /><br />There was a lad about your age/height who jumped on the erg next to me, damper lever on 10 and pulling 31SPM like a Duracell bunny - his problem would be that he could row like that for five minutes but I'd challenge him to do that for an hour. I got him to slow everything down and push more with the legs. He was only pulling 2:16s for the last 1K. His pace will improve in time.<br /><br />Read these threads on the UK Forum <a href='http://www.concept2.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7045' target='_blank'>http://www.concept2.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7045</a> <br /><a href='http://www.concept2.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7179' target='_blank'>http://www.concept2.co.uk/forum/viewtop ... 179</a><br /><br /><br />
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Dandy 54.<br /><br />First off, EVERYONE starts off slow. My initial rows were quite short and incredibly slow, I couldn't do more than a few km without being knackered and my times were generally 2:25+<br /><br />Your pace will depend on your fitness level and while frustrating, a few weeks effort will see an improvement. <br /><br />OK, it does sound like you are over-using your arms. Most of the power and thrust will come from the legs and back. A training guide can be downloaded from here:<br /><a href='http://www.concept2.co.uk/guide/downloads.php' target='_blank'>http://www.concept2.co.uk/guide/downloads.php</a><br /><br />download chapter 2 and there are photographs of the correct technique in the middle of this chapter. If you can get someone to watch you row and compare your form as you do it that would help. Failing that use a mirror placed to the side, if you can get one big enough.<br /><br />hope this helps.<br /><br />e<br /><br /><br />
Training
<!--QuoteBegin-Dandy54+Nov 9 2005, 10:26 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Dandy54 @ Nov 9 2005, 10:26 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Background: <br /><br />I've recently started using the C2 rowing machines in the hopes of getting back in shape and possibly joining my uni's (recreational) boat club in the spring. I'm male, 24 years old, 172 lbs, and 5'10".<br /><br />I had a personal trainer at the gym demonstrate the rowing technique, and she didn't find any problems with my form, but I doubt she's an expert. I've also been looking at some of the row cycles posted on this forum and the animation on the C2 website for tips on proper form.<br /><br />Problem:<br /><br />My personal best thus far is 5470 meters in 30 minutes. Admittedly, I'm a little out of shape. However, looking at the online rankings and the times posted on this forum, my personal best is a really poor performance.<br /><br />I'm usually at 24-26 s/m, damper setting at 3 or 4. My average watts are also low, at 60-70...I can't seem to break 80.<br /><br />Also, I tried going strapless--my power (measured in watts) was cut to around 40-45, and my s/m to 19.<br /><br />Am I more out of shape than I think? Using the wrong technique? Or is this normal enough for a beginner? <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br /><br />I think you should first concentrade on rowing shorter distances. So instad off rowing half een hour. Try to row 10 x 500 meters instead with 2 minutes rest. <br /><br />In the a workout I see people doing te same pace ass you. I think you should push harder en keep on excellerating during your strokes. Most people who row not so fast don,t do that. <br /><br />succes!
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<!--QuoteBegin-hjs+Nov 10 2005, 07:19 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(hjs @ Nov 10 2005, 07:19 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Dandy54+Nov 9 2005, 10:26 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Dandy54 @ Nov 9 2005, 10:26 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Background: <br /><br />I've recently started using the C2 rowing machines in the hopes of getting back in shape and possibly joining my uni's (recreational) boat club in the spring. I'm male, 24 years old, 172 lbs, and 5'10".<br /><br />I had a personal trainer at the gym demonstrate the rowing technique, and she didn't find any problems with my form, but I doubt she's an expert. I've also been looking at some of the row cycles posted on this forum and the animation on the C2 website for tips on proper form.<br /><br />Problem:<br /><br />My personal best thus far is 5470 meters in 30 minutes. Admittedly, I'm a little out of shape. However, looking at the online rankings and the times posted on this forum, my personal best is a really poor performance.<br /><br />I'm usually at 24-26 s/m, damper setting at 3 or 4. My average watts are also low, at 60-70...I can't seem to break 80.<br /><br />Also, I tried going strapless--my power (measured in watts) was cut to around 40-45, and my s/m to 19.<br /><br />Am I more out of shape than I think? Using the wrong technique? Or is this normal enough for a beginner? <br /><br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br /><br />I think you should first concentrade on rowing shorter distances. So instad off rowing half een hour. Try to row 10 x 500 meters instead with 2 minutes rest. <br /><br />In the a workout I see people doing te same pace ass you. I think you should push harder en keep on excellerating during your strokes. Most people who row not so fast don,t do that. <br /><br />succes! <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br /><br />Thanks for the tips. What do you mean by "keep on accelerating during your strokes"? What should I be doing/feeling to achieve this?<br /><br />Also, I've been trying to push with my legs...I'm somewhat confused as to just how much arms play a role. Right now I would estimate that 60 percent of my power comes from legs, with 40 percent arms at the finish. <br /><br />Finally, what's the proper placement of feet on the machine? How do I determine what adjustment to make (I think there's a scale of 1-6)?
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<!--QuoteBegin-Dandy54+Nov 10 2005, 02:21 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Dandy54 @ Nov 10 2005, 02:21 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><br />Thanks for the tips. What do you mean by "keep on accelerating during your strokes"? What should I be doing/feeling to achieve this?<br /><br />Also, I've been trying to push with my legs...I'm somewhat confused as to just how much arms play a role. Right now I would estimate that 60 percent of my power comes from legs, with 40 percent arms at the finish. <br /><br />Finally, what's the proper placement of feet on the machine? How do I determine what adjustment to make (I think there's a scale of 1-6)? <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Your legs should provide 70% of the stroke power, your back 20% and your arms the final 10%. Keep your arms quick and light. Us yur back by sitting back slightly at the end of the leg drive. When people say keep the acceleration up, listen to the fan on the machine, as you go to the catch, then as you press the legs it accelerates, try and keep the acceleration going throught the stroke.<br /><br />As for the feet issue. As a rule of thumb the strap should cross your foot where the natural bend in your trainers is, at least thats what ive heard. Some people have different levels of flexibility so it is important that you do what feels comfortable. Dont worry if you heels lift at the catch, just press through the balls of your feet.<br /><br />Best of luck. It will take time to get used to the complexities of the stroke but it will come.<br />
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<b>Agree - seems like your back is not working correctly and you are loosing power there. Back muscles are strong. The required tecnique is - lean forward so that you hands are actually behind the monitor , then push legs, then arms and last lean back - lean back on the finish so that you body angle is about 30 degrees - then catapult your body up and bend your knees quickly to the catch. Pulling at 22 spm should be ok.<br />Good luck!</b>
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<!--QuoteBegin-Laupi+Nov 11 2005, 10:51 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Laupi @ Nov 11 2005, 10:51 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The required tecnique is - lean forward so that you hands are actually behind the monitor , then push legs, <b><i>then arms and last lean back </i></b>- lean back on the finish so that you body angle is about 30 degrees - then catapult your body up and bend your knees quickly to the catch. [right] <br /> </td></tr></table>(emphasis added)<br /><br />This isn't quite how I've heard stroke technique described...you seem to have the arms & the back in the wrong order. <br /><br />On the drive, start w/ arms extended and a nice stable torso with a forward lean from the hip joint (getting your center of gravity in front of your hips, so that the back/shoulders/arms will be able to transmit the power the legs produce when the drive starts without the arms or back trying to "help" while the legs drive), begin with a strong push with your legs (hard enough that your arms/back are "hanging" off the handle while you push). As your legs get close to "flat", swing the back (from the forward lean position to a back lean position) to continue the acceleration using your back muscles and as you're about finished with the back swing, finish the drive by pulling with your arms (bending at the elbow) by pulling your elbows past your body (the forarms & wrists continue to stay flat and parallel to the ground)--until the handle touches the bottom of your sternum.<br /><br />Then reverse: extend arms, then swing back forward and allow knees to rise back to the catch position.<br /><br />HTH,<br /><br />Alissa
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<!--QuoteBegin-Alissa+Nov 11 2005, 01:59 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Alissa @ Nov 11 2005, 01:59 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Laupi+Nov 11 2005, 10:51 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Laupi @ Nov 11 2005, 10:51 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The required tecnique is - lean forward so that you hands are actually behind the monitor , then push legs, <b><i>then arms and last lean back </i></b>- lean back on the finish so that you body angle is about 30 degrees - then catapult your body up and bend your knees quickly to the catch. [right] <br /> </td></tr></table>(emphasis added)<br /><br />This isn't quite how I've heard stroke technique described...you seem to have the arms & the back in the wrong order. <br /><br />On the drive, start w/ arms extended and a nice stable torso with a forward lean from the hip joint (getting your center of gravity in front of your hips, so that the back/shoulders/arms will be able to transmit the power the legs produce when the drive starts without the arms or back trying to "help" while the legs drive), begin with a strong push with your legs (hard enough that your arms/back are "hanging" off the handle while you push). As your legs get close to "flat", swing the back (from the forward lean position to a back lean position) to continue the acceleration using your back muscles and as you're about finished with the back swing, finish the drive by pulling with your arms (bending at the elbow) by pulling your elbows past your body (the forarms & wrists continue to stay flat and parallel to the ground)--until the handle touches the bottom of your sternum.<br /><br />Then reverse: extend arms, then swing back forward and allow knees to rise back to the catch position.<br /><br />HTH,<br /><br />Alissa <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Alissa,<br /><br />After reading several of Laupi's messages, I have come to the conclusion that most of them are tongue in cheek - that he really doesn't mean what he says (especially when he claims translational errors as an excuse). In this case, he starts out with "hands actually behind the monitor." What does he do? Slam the handle all the way through the monitor to get his hands behind it? <br /><br />Bob S.<br />
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Update:<br /><br />I reviewed the tips here and some of the literature on technique provided by Concept2, and I've gotten worse! My 500m times are around 3:10 now!!!<br /><br />Since I'm clearly doing something wrong re: technique, I'm thinking of emailing the coaches at a local rowing club to see if I can get some coaching. I'm assuming I would have to pay for a "lesson" or two...how much should I offer to pay so as to entice someone to help me?<br /><br />On a more humorous note:<br /><br />Apparantly I'm not the only one with bad form. Today at the gym, the woman next to me caused the Concept2 machine to move forward during each stroke. Her cue to stop her workout? When she slammed the erg into the elliptical machine in front--which was originally 10 feet apart from the erg!
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<!--QuoteBegin-Dandy54+Nov 16 2005, 01:27 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Dandy54 @ Nov 16 2005, 01:27 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Update:<br /><br />I reviewed the tips here and some of the literature on technique provided by Concept2, and I've gotten worse! My 500m times are around 3:10 now!!!<br /><br />Since I'm clearly doing something wrong re: technique, I'm thinking of emailing the coaches at a local rowing club to see if I can get some coaching. I'm assuming I would have to pay for a "lesson" or two...how much should I offer to pay so as to entice someone to help me?<br /><br />On a more humorous note:<br /><br />Apparantly I'm not the only one with bad form. Today at the gym, the woman next to me caused the Concept2 machine to move forward during each stroke. Her cue to stop her workout? When she slammed the erg into the elliptical machine in front--which was originally 10 feet apart from the erg! <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Not sure of your location, but most rowing clubs will be starting their indoor training schedules in the USA and would welcome you as a visitor. Coaches are always poorly paid, so $10 for a bit of personal help would be nice, but they might even refuse that, because they are generally nice folks and would also like to see you become part of the larger program.<br /><br />On a slippery surface the Erg will tend to slip a bit in the direction of the flyweel right at the catch, even with propper form. To stop this from happening on the slick surface the rower would have to use their arms and back to catch the flywheel before the legs drove, which is a very bad habit. Perhaps that may be the reason for that habit to be so common, something to think about.<br /><br />Once you get next to someone going about it correctly, it should be short order before things fall in line.
Training
I wouldn't go strapless until you get used to rowing with the straps. Then you could add the first 1/3 or so of each session with straps, until you get used to going strapless. After that just use the straps from then on and go strapless now and then to stay used to the movement. However most of your timing, rhythm and technique training should come along with using the straps.<br /><br />My first few weeks on the rowing machine were mostly at 2:50 pace, along with a lot of running. A couple of times a week I did 15x 2:00 with 2:00 rests in between and did the 1 hour once at a 2:08 pace. When I started again a few years ago, already in good shape from running, I was not able to hold a 2:15 pace for the half marathon. Then after a year of training I was able to average a 1:57.9. Most of this came from doing my own thing and simply getting used to the exercise.<br /><br />So I would say (1) it is primarily a matter of fitness, (2) focus on your rhythm, timing, and what feels right to you for technique, (3) allow time to get used to and adjust to the exercise. This way you will keep improving and your times will keep coming down.
Training
<!--QuoteBegin-Dandy54+Nov 16 2005, 10:27 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Dandy54 @ Nov 16 2005, 10:27 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Update:<br /><br />I reviewed the tips here and some of the literature on technique provided by Concept2, and I've gotten worse! My 500m times are around 3:10 now!!!<br /><br />Since I'm clearly doing something wrong re: technique, I'm thinking of emailing the coaches at a local rowing club to see if I can get some coaching. I'm assuming I would have to pay for a "lesson" or two...how much should I offer to pay so as to entice someone to help me?<br /><br />On a more humorous note:<br /><br />Apparantly I'm not the only one with bad form. Today at the gym, the woman next to me caused the Concept2 machine to move forward during each stroke. Her cue to stop her workout? When she slammed the erg into the elliptical machine in front--which was originally 10 feet apart from the erg! <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br /><br />rowing around 3 minutes? That's almost not possible. You have to hold back ;-)to go that pace. There must be someone around in the gym who can show how it must be done.<br /><br />Another ding. If you work out on a bike how many watts do you use? If you row you must easely be ably to achieve that amout. Normaly a bit more. <br />And my comment about accellerating during the hole stroke means. <br />First push your legs and keep your arms straight. When your legs are straigt for 70% begin to pull with your back and arms. During this last move you have to make a lot off extra speed. At teh end off the stoke you lean back a bitt and your hand are agains your belly. In the gym where I workout I see a lot of people making thit mistake. They push away the leggs and then stop and go back. This way they mis a lot off energy. Those people's strokepeace is always at a high level easely above 30 . For a beginner like you rowing at 24/26 is a good startpoint.<br /><br />succes and remember it's not that hard. Rowing with perfect techniek is but rowing with reasenably good form is not that hard.