Mike C, Comments On Noakes' Theory?

[[old] Jim Barry]

Mike,<br /> <br />Have you come across the "Central Governor Theory"? Seems Dr. Noakes has unearthed some long-forgotten theory by A.V. Hill about the heart's sensitivity to arterial oxygen saturation as being a controlling mechanism to skeletal muscle recruitment. In layman's terms perhaps, go out too hard and the heart will be the origin of reduced performance (protecting itself, the brain and other vital organs from competing against your quads for Oxygen). This article is too much for me to digest . Wondered what you thought about it. Fatigue is such a mystery. Do you think he is shining light here? <br /><br /><a href='http://jeb.biologists.org/cgi/reprint/204/18/3225' target='_blank'>Article</a><br /><br />Thought I'd toss you a tough one! <br /><br />If you have the time, thanks. <br /><br />--Jim

[[old] DIESEL]

Yikes ! <br /><br />Is it me or are the discussions on this board re: training getting increasingly hardcore? <br /><br />Wow. Some serious brainiacs here. <br /><br />Oh yeah, Mike if you can chime in on this, we're all ears.

[[old] PaulS]

D,<br /> You must at least come up with your favorite quotes from the article.<br /><br />I.e.:<br />"Whilst preparing a rebuttal to the criticisms by Bassett and Howley (Bassett and Howle, 1997) of his previous manuscript (Noakes, 1997), Noakes (Noakes, 1998; Noakes, 2000; Noakes, 2001) rediscovered the long-forgotten central governor hypothesis as originally proposed by Hill, Long and Lupton in the 1920s (Hill et al., 1924a;. Hill et al., 1924b)"<br /><br />The classic "I've forgotten more than you will ever know."<br /><br />And a close second place:<br /><br />"Thus, a logical starting point in the search for a central governor are those<br />studies of cardiorespiratory function during acute hypoxia, since the possibility that myocardial ischaemia will develop is increased during maximal exercise in hypoxia. Studies of cardiorespiratory function during chronic hypoxia are potentially complicated by additional adaptations or maladaptations that might occur in response to sustained hypoxic stress."<br /><br />Translation: This is going to require more research [$Funding$]!<br /><br />

[[old] ancho]

<!--QuoteBegin-PaulS+Nov 4 2005, 10:26 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Nov 4 2005, 10:26 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->D,<br /> You must at least come up with your favorite quotes from the article.<br /><br />I.e.:<br />"Whilst preparing a rebuttal to the criticisms by Bassett and Howley (Bassett and Howle, 1997) of his previous manuscript (Noakes, 1997), Noakes (Noakes, 1998; Noakes, 2000; Noakes, 2001) rediscovered the long-forgotten central governor hypothesis as originally proposed by Hill, Long and Lupton in the 1920s (Hill et al., 1924a;. Hill et al., 1924b)"<br /><br />The classic "I've forgotten more than you will ever know."<br /><br />And a close second place:<br /><br />"Thus, a logical starting point in the search for a central governor are those<br />studies of cardiorespiratory function during acute hypoxia, since the possibility that myocardial ischaemia will develop is increased during maximal exercise in hypoxia. Studies of cardiorespiratory function during chronic hypoxia are potentially complicated by additional adaptations or maladaptations that might occur in response to sustained hypoxic stress."<br /><br />Translation: This is going to require more research [$Funding$]!<br /><br /> <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Great analysis, as always: Extremely accurate, but highly unprecise (or was it the other way round?) <br />Have fun!

[[old] Jim Barry]

<a href='http://www.thefactsaboutfitness.com/news/cent-gov.htm' target='_blank'>Simple version of the Central Governor Theory</a><br /><br /><br />I'll vouch for being "fatigued" without accumlation of lactic acid when I climbed Mt. Rainier a few years ago. At the top I literally moved like 100 year old man. I felt OK, talking laughing etc. I just could not move fast. It was as if something else was locking me up. It was stressful up there and in many ways I can see that the muscle lock-down could be a preservation mechanism. <br /><br />

[[old] Ralph Earle]

<!--QuoteBegin-Jim Barry+Nov 5 2005, 03:11 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Jim Barry @ Nov 5 2005, 03:11 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><a href='http://www.thefactsaboutfitness.com/news/cent-gov.htm' target='_blank'>Simple version of the Central Governor Theory</a><br /><br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />The cyclist interval training described at <a href='http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... ds=8933495' target='_blank'>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... 495</a><br /><br />says "In these tests, peak sustained power output (PPO) was measured during a progressive exercise test, muscular resistance to fatigue was determined during a timed ride to exhaustion at 150% of PPO (TF150), and a TT40 was performed on a cycle-simulator. ... . Cyclists then replaced 15 +/- 2% of their approximately 300 km.wk-1 BASE [<i>300K/week - YIKES!]</i> training with HIT, which took place on 6 d and consisted of six to eight 5-min repetitions at 80% of PPO, with 60-s recovery between work bouts."<br /><br />Before the interval training, the cyclists lasted 60.5s on the TF150 test, so take your 1-minute PB, translate it to watts and divide by 1.5 (150%) to get your PPO. Then multiply the result by .8 to get the speed of the intervals. <br /><br />When I do this, I get TF150 = @1:35, PPO = @1:48.8 and HIT @1:57.2, which is ~2K+1, an impossible pace for 5-minute intervals, given only 60s rest.<br /><br />(Jim -- what were the paces and rests for Big Bird's 5-minute intervals?)<br /><br />Does this mean cycling is easier than erging?

[[old] bobamiller]

I think I have anecdotal evidence to support this now that I have a heart rate monitor:<br /><br />I could tell I started out my last timed 2K way too fast by the hypoxic headache I developed around 800 meters, and I'm sure the dry heaves at the finish indicated something approaching a maximum effort. Yet, at the finish, my HR was 13 bpm below my max.<br /><br />Bob Miller

[[old] Stretch]

Interesting, though the article's a tough read. Tim Noakes is a fascinating guy. He started off as a rower (varsity squad for the University of Cape Town, where he still teaches), got heavily into running ultras then took a detour into cycling, if I recall correctly. Definitely practices what he preaches. His operation at UCT (disclosure: my alma mater. further disclosure: they expelled me.) started off in a broom closet with one old exercycle and has grown into a pretty-well-known center of excellence for exercise physiology. I think he now gets a lot of his funding from Discovery Networks, via a tie-in with their various health channels.<br /><br />The latest (fourth) edition of <a href='http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/087322 ... 5&v=glance' target='_blank'>his epic running tome</a> apparently includes a more accessible discussion of the "central governor" theory.

[[old] ebolton]

<!--QuoteBegin-Ralph Earle+Nov 4 2005, 10:53 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Ralph Earle @ Nov 4 2005, 10:53 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><br />Does this mean cycling is easier than erging? <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Not really. You just go further.<br /><br />Ed

[[old] Mike Caviston]

Jim, thanks for pointing out the article; I hadn’t seen it before. It will definitely take me more time to digest than I have at the moment. One of my pet topics in exercise phys is the limiting factors for aerobic capacity. It seems pretty clear to me that in most cases central factors (i.e., the heart) are more limiting than peripheral (skeletal muscle). The muscles would be able to utilize more O2 if only the heart could sustain a greater cardiac output/stroke volume/O2 delivery. (Exceptions would be someone using an arm-crank ergometer, where the heart could deliver more O2 than the small arm muscles alone could use; or perhaps when an athlete well-trained in one sport switches to another –such as from swimming to cycling – and the muscles haven’t fully adapted to the new sport.)<br />Having said all that, it doesn’t seem likely to me the heart is the true regulator during ultra-intense fatiguing situations. When the body is working at maximal aerobic + anaerobic capacity, I think metabolic byproducts and various fatiguing agents must limit muscular contraction before the heart would ever become ischemic. It’s been a couple years since I’ve read any textbook on cardiovascular physiology, but that’s my recollection of the general consensus in the literature. – Of course, that’s what Noakes is questioning. So who knows.<br /><br />As I sit here pondering, it’s funny how the burning question for me becomes, how can I exploit any of this to make my 2K faster?<br /><br />Mike Caviston<br />

[[old] Jim Barry]

Mike, <br /><br />Thanks and I look forward to more airing of your thoughts. This does put a lot of things into question if you buy into it. <br /><br />I'm glad you asked the "so what". I did too. I'm going to get Noakes' "The Lore of Running" (that Stretch mentioned). I've browsed it in awe in the past. I'm guessing it expounds a bit more on implications of a central governor in a training philosophy. It's a refreshing concept (kept me up last night as I went to bed). Today I ran a 10k race which gave me some time to think some things through about what it is that is fatiguing me exactly. Is is central? Is some signal slowing me down, making it harder on me? I was running well, but still wanted to catch this runner in front of me. It was proving very difficult. I decided to consider that fatigue could be I'm creating, perhaps out of unconscious fear of a heart attack. So, I worked on relaxing. I drew deeper breathes and slowed my breathing. I picked up a better disposition and a minute later I blew past him. I had a breeze of a last 3 miles, sprinted across the finish line (running the last 3 miles as fast as any 3 miles I've ever run) and as I checked my watch I was just stunned. I reset my 10k PB by 1:40. (now slightly more competitive at 43:55). <br /><br /><br /><br />Ralph,<br /><br />Nik's 5 minute on/1 minute off intervals (that I encourged and reviewed) were about 5k pace. I found a lot of individual variation in others and have concluded that as along as you feel like begging for mercy on the 6th rep you have the pace right! For a heavyweight Nik has a very tight 2k to 5k pace spread. <br /><br />Is cycling easier than rowing? I do think there are big enough differences so some prescriptions for cycling intervals may not apply to rowing. In the cycling world, in particular the 1 hour WR, Chris Boardman held something like 90% of his V02max for the hour. Nik would hold 90% of his HR range (perhaps a proxy for V02max) for a little under 16 minutes to set "World Class" 5k times. I would not go jumping to too many conclusions though about any one of them being "easier". I've rowed and biked and the tossed cookies on both courses.

[[old] Stretch]

Jim. As an analytical athlete, you probably won't regret dropping $20 on the Noakes book anyway, but I should caution that a skim through the Amazon reviews -- though uniformly favorable -- does indicate that it doesn't really adequately deal with the "so what" questions raised by the central governor idea. I'm sure they'll try to get there eventually, though, as the very first citation in the book is Stephen Hawking's aphorism about theoretical constructs: <i>"One cannot say that one model is more correct than the other, only more useful."</i>

[[old] FrancoisA]

Jim,<br /><br />If you really want to improve your 10K run, I can recommend the following book: <a href='http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/073605 ... s&v=glance' target='_blank'>Daniels' Running Formula</a>. <br />Based on your age, weight and erging times, you certainly have the potential to run a 10K under 38 min. All you need is a training plan for running, which is as structured as the WP for erging. That is precisely what you'll find in Dr. Jack Daniels' book.

[[old] Jim Barry]

Francois,<br /><br />Thanks for the confidence. This has really been the first year I've been seriously interested in bettering my running. I've done a lot since May to fix some of the mechanics that have kept me from putting in the mileage. With that behind me, it would seem I'm ready for structured plan (like Daniels'). The recent 10k PB was really out of nowhere. I just thought of doing the race last week and had no idea what pace to run. In July I was running most days and was good for 7:22/mile over 10k. I ran very little in August and September and lately I've not had any time to run midweek so I've just been doing these long (about 90') runs off-road on Saturdays and sometimes Sundays. I had basically thought I was in a maintain mode at best. Something really clicked for me Saturday to run as I did. My 7:01 2k suggests something like a 38:00 10k potential, I agree. I just have to do the work and it's probably a few years away.