Concept2 Forum

Hello,<br /><br />On a longer PB rowed at a consistent rate and pace such as 30' 10k 60' or HM I finish gasping sweaty and exhausted. (Edited 2/10/05)<br /><br />On a 1 minute sprint or the shorter pieces in the rugby test my HR is relatively low and am definitely not exhausted I simply cannot pull hard enough and fast enough to get a fast time.<br /><br />I dont think this is related to Aerobic vs Short term energy systems ..... When doing these short pieces there seems to be a definite physical limit to how hard I can pull any single stroke and what rating I can pull.<br /><br />Anybody else feel this way ? Am I raving again ? Is it simply a lack of strength ?<br /><br /><br />Bill

<!--QuoteBegin-Bill+Sep 28 2005, 10:11 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Bill @ Sep 28 2005, 10:11 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Hello,<br /><br />On a long steady pace aerobic type pb I feel very tired at the end, high heart rate - gasping and exhausted.<br /><br />On a 1 minute sprint or the shorter pieces in the rugby test my HR is relatively low and am definitely not exhausted I simply cannot pull hard enough and fast enough to get a fast pace.<br /><br />I dont think this is related to Aerobic vs Short term energy systems ..... When doing these short pieces there seems to be a definite physical limit to how hard I can pull any single stroke and what rating I can pull.<br /><br />Anybody else feel this way ? Am I raving again ? Is it simply a lack of strength ?<br /><br /><br />Bill <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Wow!<br /><br />I feel quite the opposite to you. I find it easier to do the short pieces as I can pull harder where as when I do long peices that are somewhat slower I cannot pull as hard. mabye you have more fast-twich fibers... I find it hard to get in a rythem with breathing etc for fast/short pieces where as with the long ones I can get in a definate rythem and my breathing is controled. I find the faster I am going the stronger I can pull it (untill I get to rating over 32 then I cannot pull that hard if it is a long piece)<br /><br />mabye you have the setting too high.. I dunno .. I suppose I am different lol<br /><br />cheers benni<br /><br />ps. sorry I wasn't any real help

Bill,<br /><br />Sounds to me like you have a technique problem. <br /><br />There are many people on the forum who can give you good advice on this, but in my humble opinion, I think you should row strapless for a while. Row a distance you can comfortably manage, and don't worry about pace.<br /><br />Concentrate on generating a consistent steady powerful stroke (on every stroke) because whether you are rowing steady or rowing fast, if your technique is off, you will never achieve your targets.<br /><br />If you have a PM3 monitor, you can set the display to show your strokes, and you should be aiming to have a lop-sided haystack shape, leaning slightly to the left, on the display. Although the curve should be slightly higher at the left, (from your leg drive), the line of the curve should be as smooth as possible.<br /><br />Something else to check is the damper setting on the machine. While you are working on your technique, I would suggest setting this at around 3 or 4.

<!--QuoteBegin-Bill+Sep 28 2005, 10:11 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Bill @ Sep 28 2005, 10:11 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Hello,<br /><br />On a long steady pace aerobic type pb I feel very tired at the end, high heart rate - gasping and exhausted.<br /><br />On a 1 minute sprint or the shorter pieces in the rugby test my HR is relatively low and am definitely not exhausted I simply cannot pull hard enough and fast enough to get a fast pace.<br /><br />I dont think this is related to Aerobic vs Short term energy systems ..... When doing these short pieces there seems to be a definite physical limit to how hard I can pull any single stroke and what rating I can pull.<br /><br />Anybody else feel this way ? Am I raving again ? Is it simply a lack of strength ?<br /><br /><br />Bill <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Bill,<br /><br />What's the rugby test? <br />

Zac,<br />Found this on the C2 UK website, and i assume the Rugby test is the same the world over.<br /><br /><b>Rugby Test</b><br /><br /><b>1000m</b><br />3:00 Rest<br /><b>750m</b><br />2:30 Rest<br /><b>500m</b><br />2:00 Rest<br /><b>250m</b><br />2:00 Rest<br /><b>750m</b><br /><br /><b>Total Time & avg pace.</b><br /><br />To help with the adding up of the times Roy Walker has added a calc to do it for you- <a href='http://machars.net/spi.php#rugby' target='_blank'>http://machars.net/spi.php#rugby</a>

Bill, you wrote:<br />On a long steady pace aerobic type pb I feel very tired at the end, high heart rate - gasping and exhausted.<br /><br />If it really is "steady aerobic" you wouldn't feel "gasping and exhausted". You'd feel warm, even sweaty and hot, but relaxed, even after 40-50 minutes . Suggest you clean up your definitions: have a look at the Interactive to see what the words mean in terms of effort level.<br /><br />As for the Rugby test, you're probably pulling short. The power that we generate and that the PMs calculate is the product of rating x length of stroke x force on the handle. If you reduce any one of these to near zero, the product is zero too, as the instrumentation and your heart will tell you. On the fixed erg the most difficult parameter to maintain is length, because we have to catch up with the flywheel. (Much less so when rowing or using a free erg).<br /><br />There are certainly limits to the force we can apply to the handle (80% of weight?) and to the rating; and if you let the higher rating shorten your stroke, the net effect is nil. The point about high level rowing is that the oarsman pulls a full-length and hard stroke, even at the highest ratings. What else. As PW says: technique. The better your technique, the harder you can work and the higher the proportion of the work that gets to the oar, and the better your training. A virtuous circle.

<!--QuoteBegin-jamesg+Sep 30 2005, 09:32 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(jamesg @ Sep 30 2005, 09:32 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There are certainly limits to the force we can apply to the handle (80% of weight?) and to the rating; and if you let the higher rating shorten your stroke, the net effect is nil. The point about high level rowing is that the oarsman pulls a full-length and  hard stroke, even at the highest ratings. What else. As PW says: technique. The better your technique, the harder you can work and the higher the proportion of the work that gets to the oar, and the better your training. A virtuous circle. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />As for the limits of force on the handle, if you are talking about Average force through the drive, you may be in the ballpark, however the peak force can certainly be well in excess of 100% of bodyweight (I've observed figures of 140%). Of course, when I refer to "limits", it's not something that's going to be maintained for longer aerobic rows. <br /><br />For something in the 8k Range it's more like 50% and 90%, from what I've seen.<br /><br />The fixed or free Erg is even more complicated, as the studies indicate that stroke length tends to be a bit shorter on the free Erg, but the rating could be considerably higher. The reasoning for this is that there is no "momentum assistance" in gaining extra reach on the free Erg. IMO this should not change stroke length if technique is well in order and under control, but I do not think that the various studies account for that, so end up with the data that they do.

<!--QuoteBegin-jamesg+Sep 30 2005, 11:32 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(jamesg @ Sep 30 2005, 11:32 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Bill, you wrote:<br />On a long steady pace aerobic type pb I feel very tired at the end, high heart rate - gasping and exhausted.<br /><br /><br /><br /> <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Jim,<br /><br />Thanks for the answer<br /><br />Yep you are right - I worded it sloppy and have fixed it - but I think you know what I mean.<br /><br />I should have said "On a longer PB rowed at a consistent rate and pace such as 30' 10k 60' or HM"<br /><br />On other pieces such as 500m sprint and the 250m bit on the Rugby Test I get the feeling that I should be able to pull much much harder than I do.<br /><br />Thanks<br /><br />Bill<br />

A year ago I did some training at 10 and 12 spm. <br /><br />These rates allowed me to go as hard as possible on each stroke, and the definite physical limit was quite obvious. <br /><br />There is certainly a technique to applying one's strength, but strength is the limiting factor as to how hard one can drive.<br /><br />I don't find any limitation as to rating, though it takes practice to coordinate a full drive and higher rating together.<br /><br />

Bill, if you do some sums, you'll see that oarsmen don't have to pull particularly hard - say 60-70 kg; but to get fast times, we have to pull long strokes and pack plenty of them into the available time or distance. The usual judicious mix of technique, strength and endurance, which leads us the usual apparent paradox: if you want to go fast, go slow, but for long times. As JR says, it takes practice.., an unbelievable quantity I'd add.

Hello,<br /><br />Thanks for the answers.<br /><br />Am off to have a look at some of the exercises I've seen for low ratings.<br /><br />Bill<br /><br />

<!--QuoteBegin-jamesg+Oct 3 2005, 08:40 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(jamesg @ Oct 3 2005, 08:40 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Bill, if you do some sums, you'll see that oarsmen don't have to pull particularly hard - say 60-70 kg; but to get fast times, we have to pull long strokes and pack plenty of them into the available time or distance. The usual judicious mix of technique, strength and endurance, which leads us the usual apparent paradox: if you want to go fast, go slow, but for long times. As JR says, it takes practice.., an unbelievable quantity I'd add. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br /><br />If this is true, and I believe it is, doesn't that mean height is most likely an advantage? I remember posting a University of Michigan physics study a while back that set out to prove taller rowers posted faster times on the erg because height allowed for longer strokes, but cannot find it now. The findings of the study were that it was an advantage. I think the study was titled tall vs short rowers.

<!--QuoteBegin-tditmar+Oct 4 2005, 07:47 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(tditmar @ Oct 4 2005, 07:47 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If this is true, and I believe it is, doesn't that mean height is most likely an advantage? I remember posting a University of Michigan physics study a while back that set out to prove taller rowers posted faster times on the erg because height allowed for longer strokes, but cannot find it now. The findings of the study were that it was an advantage. I think the study was titled tall vs short rowers. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Is this <a href='http://www.umich.edu/~mvs330/w97/rowers/main.html' target='_blank'>http://www.umich.edu/~mvs330/w97/rowers/main.html</a> the study you were thinking of?<br />

<!--QuoteBegin-Ray79+Sep 30 2005, 11:28 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Ray79 @ Sep 30 2005, 11:28 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Zac,<br />Found this on the C2 UK website, and i assume the Rugby test is the same the world over.<br /><br /><b>Rugby Test</b><br /><br /><b>1000m</b><br />3:00 Rest<br /><b>750m</b><br />2:30 Rest<br /><b>500m</b><br />2:00 Rest<br /><b>250m</b><br />2:00 Rest<br /><b>750m</b><br /><br /><b>Total Time & avg pace.</b><br /><br />To help with the adding up of the times Roy Walker has added a calc to do it for you- <a href='http://machars.net/spi.php#rugby' target='_blank'>http://machars.net/spi.php#rugby</a> <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Thanks Ray...I hadn't checked this thread for a while so I didn't see your response.<br />Thanks again.<br />

10-12 spm translates to 1 stroke every 5-6 seconds. That is the timing and duration of the Creatine ATP energy cycle. At that slow pace, you can get a maximum pull every stroke, since the ATP/CP just gets hit once and can "re-load".<br /><br />If you are gasping at the end, you've been in O2 debt, which limits power horribly (20-30% or more). The trick is get as close to lactate threshhold without crossing it, and hold there. Cross, and back off 1-2%. If you don't drop under in a few strokes, drop another 1-2%. You'll find a maximum level you can hold a long time, nearer to 90% of your max.<br /><br />CP/ATP good for about 6 seconds<br />Muscle Glucose for anerrobics, about 3 minutes.<br />Aerobic at all levels, hours. How high depends on your strength level and cardio strength. Yeah, its fast twitch/slow twitch But those slow fibers can still have a lot of strength.<br /><br />If you lay off strength training, you lose about 5% a week. Skip the intervals at your own risk. We all ARE different, and seldom can do the same output and workout as someone else. Diet, sleep, stress, time of workout, hydration, strength all vary from person to person. Workout output will, too.