Lightweight Rowing In College

[old] sinai16 · Post by **[old] sinai16** » June 22nd, 2005, 8:07 pm

I just started training on the erg about three weeks ago in addition to my crossfit training as I plan to walk on as a lightweight rower in the fall, as a freshman. I've been rowing about three times per week on top of my other workouts and have managed to get a 1k time of 3:25, a 10k time of 40:07 and 7520 meters in 30 minutes. These were hard efforts, but not absolutely all out. How fast should I aim to be in the 5k, 10k, 30 minute, and 2k row by the fall in order to be well-prepared for the crew team? Are my times so far horribly out of shape or just mildly? Also, are there any other crossfitters on this board? Thanks for your time. Russ Greene

[old] Peter S · Post by **[old] Peter S** » June 23rd, 2005, 12:38 am

Well times mainly depend on where you are attending college. Club teams are much easier than say a varsity squad to walk onto, so if you would like to inform us on your college or whether or not the sport is a club or varsity sport, a much accurate answer can be given

[old] Pete Marston · Post by **[old] Pete Marston** » June 23rd, 2005, 3:48 am

I have no idea on college times, but just a comment from the times you've posted. A 1:42 split for a 1k is a respectable starting point, but would point to a 10k around a 1:57 pace, or 39mins. Therefore I think you need to work on your endurance to get your 10k time down as much as possible. You'd probably be around 7:10 - 7:15 if you tried a 2k now. Work on the 10k for a while and get it down well below 39mins if you can, and you should be able to get a sub 7 for 2k.

[old] sinai16 · Post by **[old] sinai16** » June 23rd, 2005, 7:06 pm

I'm going to Georgetown next year. They have a pretty good lightweight team. My training program is on a three days on, one day off schedule. My usual schedule is such that one day is a long row and maybe some distance running, the second day is a crossfit workout with some faster and shorter rowing and running intervals, and the third day is gymnastics and low rep squats, cleans, and jerks. I'm not going to test my 2k until I get 8000 meters in 30 minutes or a sub-38 10k, just because I don't think it makes very much sense to do so before I get my base up. My goal in my training to get a lot better at rowing while at the same time improving in gymnastics, running, weightlifting, and crossfit, which is why I am not following a full-on rowing regimen yet. Too much rowing volume = loss of strength and power, and that's not what I'm after.

[old] Xeno · Post by **[old] Xeno** » June 24th, 2005, 1:00 am

Hi Russ, Good job cross training. If your main goal to be on that Georgetown crew, you should consider changing you training routine a little more. Steady state rowing between 18-22 strokes per minute should not make you lose muscle weight. Steady state rowing will grow your aerobic capacity which is 80% of power for a 2K. I would add in a couple weight circuits a week for the core muscle groups which are needed to pull the oar. Make sure that you ALWAYS have enough electrolytes in your drinks and if you are already on the "light" side, put enough carbohydrates in your drink mix while you workout. There is a great book anyone who is serious about training to become more powerful in rowing should buy: Rowing Faster, by Volker Nolte and a bunch of other high caliber international rowing coaches. You can get it on AMAZON.com I do video coaching if you are interested give me a ring. By the way your times as far as being a walk on are pretty good. Good collegiate lightweight times range between 645 to all the way down to the high teens. Good luck to you. Check out the webcam one day.

[old] Porkchop · Post by **[old] Porkchop** » June 24th, 2005, 10:06 am

Russ, Good to see that you're not "Masquerading as Ross Greenberg" anymore. Porkchop

[old] Exrook · Post by **[old] Exrook** » June 24th, 2005, 1:49 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(sinai16 @ Jun 23 2005, 07:06 PM)</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>I'm going to Georgetown next year. They have a pretty good lightweight team. My training program is on a three days on, one day off schedule. My usual schedule is such that one day is a long row and maybe some distance running, the second day is a crossfit workout with some faster and shorter rowing and running intervals, and the third day is gymnastics and low rep squats, cleans, and jerks. I'm not going to test my 2k until I get 8000 meters in 30 minutes or a sub-38 10k, just because I don't think it makes very much sense to do so before I get my base up. My goal in my training to get a lot better at rowing while at the same time improving in gymnastics, running, weightlifting, and crossfit, which is why I am not following a full-on rowing regimen yet. Too much rowing volume = loss of strength and power, and that's not what I'm after. </td></tr></table> I took my wife to the ballet at the Kennedy Center last night to celebrate our anniversary, and before the show we walked around the upper terrace. As we neared the southwestern corner, I glanced over and saw Thompson's Boat Center upriver a bit (where Georgetown Crew lives) and noticed two men on the outside upper deck of the boat house erging away. I immediately grabbed my wife's opera glasses to see what their form looked like, what Model erg they were using, etc. Good luck at Georgtown. It's one of my alma maters.

[old] DIESEL · Post by **[old] DIESEL** » June 24th, 2005, 5:19 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(Xeno @ Jun 24 2005, 12:00 AM)</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> Steady state rowing between 18-22 strokes per minute should not make you lose muscle weight. </td></tr></table> Not exactly. This is true provided you are eating enough calories. Rowing burns hella calories - if you are at a caloric deficit your body will initially metabolize muscle mass for energy as it is easier for it to do so than bodyfat. the best way to stave this is to make sure you are taking in some quick protein and carbs before and after your workout. A scoop of a quality protein powder mixed with Gatorade or similar sports drink is key - allowing you train hard with negligible effects on muscle mass or recovery. But Xeno is right about one thing - if you want to be a rower - you have to train like a rower. Crossfit is cool - but remember your focus: rowing. take care guys, D

[old] Peter S · Post by **[old] Peter S** » June 24th, 2005, 6:41 pm

Another thing to remember is, that even if you aren't up to the standards you would like to be, the coaching there will teach you to be a top level rower and your times will drop as the season progresses, so although you might be behind, as long as you show the coaches that you want to learn and get faster, they should help you out

[old] sinai16 · Post by **[old] sinai16** » June 24th, 2005, 7:18 pm

I wasn't too clear with my concerns about strength loss. I'm not really worried about a loss of muscle, it's not like I have all that much already, it's power and strength loss that I'm worried about. High training volume in endurance sports leads to predominantly slow twitch muscle fibers, which are obviously weaker and slower than fast twitch ones, though much more enduring. I'm naturally a more slow twitch guy, and becoming even more so isn't very appealing. It looks like I'm eventually going to have to make a decision between all-around fitness and specialized rowing training, but I'd like to see how far I can keep on pushing the envelope until I reach that point. Crossfit has some guys rowing 6:40-50 2k's with no rowing training whatsoever, so there must be some potential for having it both ways. I'll keep you guys updated on my progress. Thanks for the help. P.S. Porkchop, keep quiet, you're blowing my cover. Don't mention the whole Rafael Gonzales affair or I might really get in trouble.

[old] Bayko · Post by **[old] Bayko** » June 24th, 2005, 7:41 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(DIESEL @ Jun 24 2005, 09:19 PM)</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(Xeno @ Jun 24 2005, 12:00 AM)</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> Steady state rowing between 18-22 strokes per minute should not make you lose muscle weight. </td></tr></table> Not exactly. This is true provided you are eating enough calories. Rowing burns hella calories - if you are at a caloric deficit your body will initially metabolize muscle mass for energy as it is easier for it to do so than bodyfat. the best way to stave this is to make sure you are taking in some quick protein and carbs before and after your workout. A scoop of a quality protein powder mixed with Gatorade or similar sports drink is key - allowing you train hard with negligible effects on muscle mass or recovery. But Xeno is right about one thing - if you want to be a rower - you have to train like a rower. Crossfit is cool - but remember your focus: rowing. take care guys, D </td></tr></table> Ah Geez, not the muscle-mass-for-energy mis-information again. If you missed it, I posted the following to NJPitcher on April 28th: NO! No! No! No! No! This is at least the second time that this fallacy has appeared on the forum recently. The preferred fuel for exercise is glycogen. When that is depleted fat is turned into ketones that act in much the same way that glycogen does, albeit requiring far more oxygen (heavier breathing) than glycogen. Consider this from the Holy Cross College biology department: "The only time body protein as normally used for energy is in the advanced stages of starvation." The full article is here: <a href='http://www.holycross.edu/departments/bi ... erview.pdf' target='_blank'>http://www.holycross.edu/departments/bi ... pdf</a> Excess consumed protein can sometimes be used for fuel, but only after having been converted to fat or carbohydrate. This is consistent with everything that I've studied on the subject over the past 30 years. The only place (other than the couple of times here on the forum) that I've seen this myth of burning muscle is on body building and sports nutritional sites that seem to have an agenda of selling supplements. Additionally, I've dug out Textbook of Work Physiology by Astrand & Rodahl, which is considered one of the best works in the field. In eight pages (pages 12-20 in my edition) on The Fuel there is only one oblique reference to proteins: "Even the amino acids, after deamination, can enter the Krebs cycle via pyruvic acid and be completley oxidized or synthesized to glycogen or fat. As a fuel for muscular contraction, however, the oxidation of proteins normally plays a very limited role." Even stronger language is used on page 456: "PROTEIN -- It is well established that protein is not used as a fuel to any appreciable extent when the caloric supply is adequate. Nitrogen excretion does not rise significantly following muscular work. .......references, references, references......Similar findings have been reported in skiers during 2.5 hours of skiing at a rate corresponding to about 3.8 liters of 02/min, amounting to a total expenditure of about 3000kcal. Even after exhausting the glycogen depots, continued exercise does not raise the nitrogen excretion significantly. The choice of fuel for the working muscle, therefore, is actually limited to carbohydrate and fat." Inadequate caloric intake in scientific circles does not mean missing breakfast, it means concentration camp or anexoria nervosa starvation. Please lead me to references that back up the statements you are making about muscle catabolism. Something that doesn't come from a website promoting supplements. I'm willing to unlearn 30-something years of study of physiology and nutrition (as a hobby, not a profession) if you can give me something valid to go on. Rick

[old] Porkchop · Post by **[old] Porkchop** » June 24th, 2005, 7:52 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(sinai16 @ Jun 24 2005, 06:18 PM)</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>P.S. Porkchop, keep quiet, you're blowing my cover. Don't mention the whole Rafael Gonzales affair or I might really get in trouble. </td></tr></table> I'm just a lurker over there, so I'll forget the whole thing if you'll just do Becca B's Tabata HSPU's for her. I'd never, ever mention or draw attention to THE RAFAEL GONZALEZ AFFAIR. That would be unacceptable behavior, and quite embarrassing for you. Don't worry, your secret is safe. Porkchop

[old] Xeno · Post by **[old] Xeno** » June 25th, 2005, 2:58 pm

Hi Rick The general misperception about training at target heart rate, 2mmol of lactic acid or below, for longer periods of time is that people wrongfully think they are going to lose muscle mass. Quite in the contrary most rowers who start training with accurate pro-aerobic heart rates don't lose muscle weights but gain muscle density! Talk to you soon. When are you going to visit us at the Iron Oarsman?

[old] Bayko · Post by **[old] Bayko** » June 25th, 2005, 4:06 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(Xeno @ Jun 25 2005, 06:58 PM)</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Hi Rick The general misperception about training at target heart rate, 2mmol of lactic acid or below, for longer periods of time is that people wrongfully think they are going to lose muscle mass. Quite in the contrary most rowers who start training with accurate pro-aerobic heart rates don't lose muscle weights but gain muscle density! Talk to you soon. When are you going to visit us at the Iron Oarsman? </td></tr></table> Cheers Xeno, Agreed. In fact, we frequently see posts from new ergers who are baffled at how they are not losing weight, but go on to mention that they are losing inches and that their clothes fit more loosely. That happens because of muscle mass being ADDED at the same rate at which fat is being burned off. Also, I think most people don't understand how much exercise it would take to burn off so much fat that the body would turn to muscle for fuel. When I was a 137 lb marathon runner I was at 6.3% bodyfat, or 8.6 lb of fat on what most people considered an extraordinarily scrawny frame. Figuring the generally accepted rough estimate of one pound of fat providing enough energy to run 35 miles, it means that even a skinny guy like me would have to run over 300 miles (which would take two or three straight days of running) without eating any replenishment in order to start tapping into my muscle mass. I haven't been to California since 1968. It's a bit far away for me. But if I do get back there the Iron Oarsman would definitely be on the agenda. Rick

[old] Xeno · Post by **[old] Xeno** » June 25th, 2005, 4:14 pm

OK, Rick, that's it. Drive to Boston, jump into a Jet Blue, get out in Long Beach, rent a subcompact car, and say hi in Costa Mesa, is this difficult? See you next month! XENO

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