Concept2 Forum

I rowed a marathon on Sunday at a fairly brisk 1:51 pace. My butt ached afterwards, but my legs rebounded quickly. This is probably due to me rowing a lot over the last five years.<br /><br />Then on Monday, I ran about 5 miles at a very easy pace (8 to 10 min miles) to find a good spectator place for the Boston Marathon. Afterwards, my quads ached. I had trouble going down stairs. I haven't run for a long time, but I would think that my legs should have been in shape from all the rowing. Rowing is a leg sport, right?<br /><br />Yesterday, my quads still ached from the run several days before. But I was able to row 16K at a 1:49 pace with no problems. How can the quads be sore from running but they don't mind rowing? Will running help develop the quadracep muscles for rowing or are the muscles used in such a different way that it won't help.<br /><br />Regards,<br /><br />Paul Flack

I have asked that question before in different ways. It must be that you are using different muscles, or the same muscles very differently and to different degrees. I also find my wind is different, probably due to the same reasons. <br /><br />My guess would be that one sport does not particularly help the other, but probably helps your overall fitness. <br /><br />The thing I am still trying to figure out is why I drop unwanted lbs. faster running 2 1/2 miles 3 days a week than I do rowing 5k instead on those days. On the other hand, rowing seems to develop muscle mass throughout my body. It seems like that would allow me to lose weight faster, but it is not the case. If I am only rowing I have a tough time with the weight. If I run, even low mileage, it drops fast. I have decided to do both.

Rick Bayko, I see you reading this. <br /><br />I think I need to get another pair of racing flats from you. I liked the NB RC240s a lot, but I guess they are no longer. No foot problems at all. I tried Nike AirZoom Milers, but have really irritated the sesamoids in my right foot. I think it was due to too much cushioning not allowing me to feel the impact. My foot was swollen for a couple of days last week. I liked the feel of the cushioning, but I think it is bad for your feet.<br /><br />Anyway, what would you suggest?<br /><br />Thanks, Tom

Paul,<br /><br />I don't know the answer. But I experienced a similar problem. On a short getaway over Easter, I ran 4 days straight about 60 minutes each day at a little under 8 minutes per mile (about 7:45-7:50), no hills . After the third day, I my quads ached. The fourth day I ran normally again but afterwards my quads ached again. Now granted I normally run 1-2 times a week at 45-60 minutes each run.<br /><br />I assume it is just different muscles in use. Each activity stresses different muscles and even stresses them diferently.<br /><br />Many years ago I experienced a small tear in my left calf during summer training for cross country. I could walk and ride a bike with no problem. But I could not run 10 steps with out being in excruciating pain. I rode 40-50 miles a day on the bike to stay in shape and took six weeks to recover. Just in time for the start of the season. The biking maintained my CV but I had no race legs. I did not have a very successful season.<br /><br />andy

I've experienced the same thing myself. While on vacation last summer, I didn't have access to an erg (how am I supposed to relax without one?!), so I tried running. I ran about three miles at a fairly easy pace, and ended up with the same kind of sore quads you described.<br /><br />If I might be allowed to speculate, perhaps the soreness is due to the fact that we run one leg at a time but row with both legs working together. Another thought I had was that, when your foot hits the ground with your knee slightly bent, your quads absorb the energy as you stop moving towards the ground - your quads are applying force without really contracting too much while your leg is nearly straight. Other than that, I think your quads are only involved in extending your lower leg as you prepare to land on that foot for your next stride - not really a power generation movement (it appears that the power generation for running comes more from the glutes). It certainly looks to me like running does not tax the quads the same way rowing does.<br /><br />Point your browser <a href='http://idraet.au.dk/doc/nielsuth/Present%20Project.htm' target='_blank'>here</a> for some freeze frames of someone running.

Good news, bad news, and mysteries.<br /><br />The good news is that this sounds like something that is a matter of adaptation. It doesn't sound like an injury that requires ceasing the activity.<br /><br />The bad news is that to achieve the adaptation, there is no shortcut. Regular activity of the specific thing is what is required. The ol' theory of specificity. Unfortunately erging, or cycling, or swimming, or whatever will not substitute for running, if running pain-free is the qoal. As stated above, general fitness will be achieved and erging fitness will be achieved, but erging will not prepare the quads for running.<br /><br />I wish I could give you scholarly reasons why this is so, but some things simply remain a mystery. At least to me. I used to think that simply running a marathon was enough to kill my quads, because I would spend the several days after my Boston Marathons having to walk downstairs backwards because my quads could not stand the motion of going down normally (but then again, what is normal ). Then in 1974 I was invited to run the Rice Festival Marathon from Lafayette to Crowley, Louisiana. Execpt for one railroad overpass (atop which one could see for miles and miles and miles) the course was as flat as John Rupp's erg rail. No quad soreness! Yeah I was tired, but not sore like after running a hilly course. Eight days later I ran a PB for 15km. Never could have done that eight days after a Boston or Yonkers, NY marathon.<br /><br />In the 1980's Nike had a research lab in Exeter, NH and put me on their mailing list of published findings. One that stuck in my mind had to do with the damaging effect of running downhill, specifically quad damage, to explain the Boston Marathon effect. They used muscle biopsy (ouch) to access the damage. Unsurprisingly enough they confirmed that downhill running damaged the quads more than flat running. Not a big surprise to those of us who had been racing avidly for years. Surprising though was a finding that repeated training on downhills gave a runner a false sense of adaptation in which their perception of pain diminished even as their muscle biopsy showed the same damage as before. I was always skeptical of that, and to be fair I've never seen a followup or any other studies showing the same thing. Therefore I declare a mystery. At least in my mind.<br /><br />Also, no matter how well conditioned I would be for running, if I went out on a bicycle with friends for a brisk ride my quads would be very sore afterwards even though there was no pounding. If I began riding regularly the pain would subside then disappear. Again, specificity I would imagine. Same quads, so many different ways to injure them. <br /><br />There must be some mechanism in the braking action of the quad on landing that requires different things of the muscle than mere contraction does. But I don't know what.<br /><br />Tom, New Balance has some newer racing models. I'll try to find out which one is closest to the 240. Have you seen the Nike "Free?" It is supposed to simulate barefoot running.<br /><br />Rick

After having just run Boston,I can appreciate achy,sore quads. I describe my legs as being radioactive,and I'm only good for 2 to 3 hours sleep the night after.<br /><br /> I don't think its as much a case as using different muscles as how those muscles are loaded. My racewalking wife once described running as violent which I've come to realize is true. The leg extended requires a quick eccentric contraction of the quads upon foot plant to propel yourself forward. Paul,I suspect you were running downhill with us,which is an art in itself-to keep from stopping yourself by keeping your legs underneath you. And,at 3x body weight PSI at the knee,the difference between lightweight and heavyweight can be substantial.<br /><br /><br />That being said,I'm more convinced than ever that the two activities compliment one another beautifully. I rowed more than I ran the 6 months before Boston. I hardly ran at all in the fall after contracting shingles, and exclusively rowed during the holiday challenge. After the 1st of the year I started running with a 10 miler, on an unseasonably warm day,and initiated a general weight cuircuit 3x a week. I ran 3 to 5 times a week,and to be honest it was probably closer to 3 than 5 for most weeks. I did a 15-16 miler,a 21 and a month before a 23,and 5-6 10 milers in between. Along with this, I'd erg strapless 5ks before work as much as possible-focusing on the great visual from Jim Barry of trying to push the machine away from me.<br /><br /><br />Five days after my last long run,half way through an early morning 10k, I pulled a groin muscle. I tried to keep going for another mile and had to walk home the last 2 mi. I couldn't run at all for 8 days and noticed some discoloration on the inside of my thigh. The next 3-4 days I ran 5-6k with some degree of difficulty. Though during this time I was able to row my 5k. Eight days before the race I was able to get through a 10 miler with no problems.<br /><br />I took 4 days off before the race. I went to Boston with a pair Asic tigerpaws,walked around in them-got squemish about having enough support,and in my usual fashion purchased a pair of Adidas competions. I wish I had had the time to hop on the train to the Yankeerunner for som expert counsel.<br /><br />On race day,took all pressure off, and had the vague notion of trying to go out at 5 min/k for the first 10 miles,and gearing it back for the next 10 miles if need be.<br />Though nothing like last year it was still pretty warm. I got through 10 miles sub 79 mins. and held 5 min/k through 30 k. I eased my way over the hills,and with trashed quads focused on arm drive and the legs will follow. With 2 miles to go the great sleep overtook me and had an urge to pull off to the curb and take a nap.<br />Then I overtook a woman with "team nice a**" emblazoned across her transom,lightening the load. Before I knew it, I was turning off of Hereford St.,sailing "wing and wing" down Boylston crossing in 3:31:09. Well chuffed, I headed off to chiro and massage,and to rejoin my twin sister to celebrate her 9th and my 10th Boston Marathon.<br />

I think the difference is that rowing is non-impact. Running is hella impact. You're going to get sore those first couple of days, but remember once your body gets used to the pounding, the rowing fitness kicks in.

I've run 3 marathons (many years ago). <a href='http://www.godscountrymarathon.com/' target='_blank'>God's Country Marathon</a> which is very hilly and twice Philadelphia Independence Marathon (when it was Ambler to Independence Hall) which is moderately hilly but the finish is flat. I never had quad problems but did experience tightening of the calves on the downhills. I don't know what point I am trying to make, I am not disagreeing, just relating my experience.<br /><br />andy

Take a look at the body position for running, cycling, and ERGing. With running the body is upright. What propels the body foward is the glutes and hamstrings, not the quads. In cycling the body is upright, unless you're riding a recumbent. The quads come into play considerably here because each pedal stroke can be compared to climbing steps. With the ERG, it is mostly hamstrings and glutes again. Not the quads. By the time the quads do come into play there is a lot of momentum carrying them through the stroke. Therefore little quad usage is there. If you divide the motion of a squat or leg press into thirds, the glutes and hamstrings are what moves the body in the first third of the movement. The second third of the movement is a combination of the glutes, hamstrings, and quads. The last third of the movement is almost all quads.<br /><br />With running the quads do, in fact, act as a semi brake with each foot fall. But there is such a small amount of knee flex that there is just the impact. The sudden flex and relaxation of the quad. That doesn't happen with cycling or ERGing. This is one of the reasons that experienced competitive runners will almost always experience a pulled hamstring. The back of their legs is so developed from running that is overwhelmes the front. The result is a pulled hamstring.<br /><br />Hey, just my opinion, folks. No Yelling.<br />Yoda

<!--QuoteBegin-Canoeist+Apr 21 2005, 09:06 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Canoeist @ Apr 21 2005, 09:06 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I rowed a marathon on Sunday at a fairly brisk 1:51 pace.  My butt ached afterwards, but my legs rebounded quickly.  This is probably due to me rowing a lot over the last five years.<br /><br />Then on Monday, I ran about 5 miles at a very easy pace (8 to 10 min miles) to find a good spectator place for the Boston Marathon.  Afterwards, my quads ached.  I had trouble going down stairs.  I haven't run for a long time, but I would think that my legs should have been in shape from all the rowing.  Rowing is a leg sport, right?<br /><br />Yesterday, my quads still ached from the run several days before.  But I was able to row 16K at a 1:49 pace with no problems.  How can the quads be sore from running but they don't mind rowing?  Will running help develop the quadracep muscles for rowing or are the muscles used in such a different way that it won't help.<br /><br />Regards,<br /><br />Paul Flack <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Congratulations on the marathon at quite a nice pace! <br />I have had the same problem with my quads after running.<br />I don't run that often, but once in a while I do. When I didn't do quite as much erging as I do now, I would be sore for a couple of days after running, but manageable. More recently, after much more erging, the few days after running my quads are useless for going down the steps. I'm a lightweight, but I might as well be 250 kg as far as being able to support myself going down steps .<br />I also thought, I erg a lot and have strong legs, and I also walk a lot, quite quickly, so I should be okay running some. Ha ha ha !! <br />It is amazing how specific the muscles are, and I guess that the erging muscles are built up so much that they are sorting of squeezing out the, infrequently used, running muscles. <br />It all goes to show that cross-training is a good ideas if one wants to do multiple activities.<br /><br />David<br />

<!--QuoteBegin-DIESEL+Apr 21 2005, 12:48 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(DIESEL @ Apr 21 2005, 12:48 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I think the difference is that rowing is non-impact.  Running is hella impact.  You're going to get sore those first couple of days, but remember once your body gets used to the pounding, the rowing fitness kicks in. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />I think it is more than just the impact. When I run after my wind is also affected. Even a 2 1/2 mile run exhausts me more than a 5 or even 10k erg sessions. That cannot be from impact, but more likely muscles working harder, different, or different muscles working.<br /><br />Not only that, but it is always the case. Running the same distance as erging is always much more exhausting to me, know matter how much I am doing of either activity. As I mentioned above, I drop weight running, but find it difficult to drop weight erging. I do, however, build muscle mass erging and I have heard others say they do not build muscle mass erging, but rather drop weight.<br /><br />I am trying to do both, to do both.

Tom,<br /><br />the difference, I believe, is that running requires overcoming gravity. This is quickly noticed in everyday life by having to go up a flight of stairs, or when running or cycling by having to go up a hill. Even though it is more slight in a simple run on level ground, our body mass rises up a bit against gravity with each stride. On the erg, or cycling on level ground it does not.<br /><br />If you use a heart rate monitor when running and run a course that undulates you will notice that even if you try to maintain a steady effort your heart rate will climb on the slightest upgrade and will decrease on downgrades.<br /><br />While any single stride doesn't require a major effort to overcome gravity, thousands of strides over 2 or three miles adds up. Just as it would accumulate if you had to walk up 50 flights of stairs in a highrise compared to a single flight of stairs at home.<br /><br />Rick

Arrggghhhh!!!! I've joined the club. <br /><br />On Monday I decided to start my "summer running" with the goal of doing some local 5km's as I did last year. First run was about 2 miles, trying to stay as relaxed as possible. Very sore afterward in the quads, just above the knees, and in the hamstrings. Stairs were particularly nasty. Yesterday I followed up with about 2.2 miles. Pace was actually a bit faster for the same effort but the soreness was the same.<br /><br />From much past experience I know that I can expect this to continue for another four or five runs before the pain subsides. It will take another three to four weeks after that before the running stops feeling awkward and smoothes out. Then, if my stupid ankle holds up, I should be able to enjoy some good running for awhile. Getting into shape is always much harder than staying in shape.<br /><br />To help ease the aching while readaptation takes place I'm stretching the hamstrings by lying on the floor and lifting one leg at a time as far as I can comfortably get it, then holding for a few seconds while relaxing into the stretch. By about the third or fourth repetition of this I can get to about a 90 degree angle to the floor. I'm also stretching the quads one at a time by standing, reaching back with the hand opposite to the leg I'm stretching, and gently pulling the leg into the butt while pushing the hip forward. (I've read that if you pull back your right leg with the right hand, or left leg with left hand, that you can have a tendancy to pull on the knee joint in a bad way) I'm also raising my legs while watching television by lying on the floor with the legs propped up on a swiss ball. That usually makes my legs feel a bit better.<br /><br />I don't know if it will help my erging, but it will help my mental state. I really like running and being outdoors. <br /><br />Rick

Running will break muscles down more becuase of the tension during excentric movements. Hence there will be more swolling from the immunosystem setting in to clear the debree, and therefore more pain. <br /><br />The adaptation rendering less pain after running may possibly involve getting a less destrucitve technique and more resistive muscles. For example they may for some reason become more elastic. I think I read on the net a study showing that the number of sarcomeres increases, so that each has to strectch a shorter distance and therefore less rupture occurs.