Concept2 Forum

I bought a Model D 2 months ago and stopped going to my gym. I used to supllement my cardio with 2-3x/wk full body weight training.<br /><br />Since stopping my gym routine i have noticed that I have dropped 5ish pounds without any other diet, cardio changes...just stopped lifting. <br /><br />Can i assume that additional loss is due to ceasing weight training? Somehow i think Diesel will have the answer........<br />

I used to goto the gym and supplement my erging with weights 3-4 times a week. I used to be 86kg I think. Since Jan last year Ive had my own erg at home and havent lifted weights since then and I am now 81kg. I am sure this is muscle loss. T-shirts are baggier around the arms etc. On the plus side Ive got faster and if I can get my arse in gear I could maybe make LWT for next season, problem is I like my food a bit much!!!!

Hi people,<br />I would like to ask the 2 guys who've lost muscle-mass by stopping lifting weights:<br />Did you replace the missing weight-training by (aerobic)erging, and does your ergo-training now excists only of endurance work-outs or do you do also strength-workouts on your rower ?<br />I'm a dutch cycler. I cycle and I complement my training with weight-training on the leg-press. I hate doing this but it's necessary to prevent losing weight too much, especially since I look like Trevor Reznik from "The Machinist".<br />I thought about complementing my cycling with rowing (for all-round strenght-training) but when I read your messages I started doubting.<br />Greetings from Holland

<!--QuoteBegin-gaffano+Mar 18 2005, 11:25 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(gaffano @ Mar 18 2005, 11:25 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I bought a Model D  2 months ago and stopped going to my gym. I used to supllement my cardio with 2-3x/wk full body weight training.<br /><br />Since stopping my gym routine i have noticed that I have dropped 5ish pounds without any other diet, cardio changes...just stopped lifting. <br /><br />Can i assume that additional loss is due to ceasing weight training? Somehow i think Diesel will have the answer........ <br /> </td></tr></table><br />Yes, I would say that this loss is due to the decrease in weight lifting. When you lift weights, your muscles store more water and carbs than normal in response to the workout. This is simply water weight, and I'm willing to bet that you're not going to miss the weight that you lost so far -- unless you're training significantly more than usual, you're not going to really atrophy any muscles. If you start to see marked decreases in weight, you might want to re-evaluate your diet/rest, as well as your training.

I think the subject of weight training for improved rowing is particularly interesting. When i changed from running to indoor rowing i needed to beef up as i could go up and down the slide pretty quickly but had no power!<br />I started with general weights and then over the last 3 months have worked specifically on increasing my vertical jump which transfers nicely to the power needed for driving up the slide.<br />2 weeks ago i was over 100 kg (previously 90 kg, height 6 ft 4), i still have another 3 weeks of 3 times a week leg weights before starting plyometrics and anaerobic work but in the last 2 - 3 weeks have increased my aerobic T rowing. i have noticed a loss of body weight despite high protein suppliment, no rise in morning resting heart rate and high carb diet. i feel it is subcut fat i have lost.

I note this thread with great interest. I used to do a fair bit of running - 30 miles a week, in 5-13 mile stints. I found I was losing weight - fat (yippee) and latterly discovered I was also losing muscle (uh-oh).<br /><br />I bought the Concept 2 rower because my Doc said that too much running at my age (44) isn't too good - especially as I had never run before. A developing click in my right leg (which I can hear from time to time when I straighten my leg or move it in an awkward way - no pain though?) convinced me he's probably right. <br /><br />My running is now down from about 110 miles / month to about 25 miles / month (and some of that is now interval running / sprinting). I may reduce that further still - depends on whether my knee stops clicking. I also now strength train quite hard 3 times a week, which has restored some of the lost muscle, and I am keen to keep it, as it is helping me lose weight of course.<br /><br />What I'd like to do is 5k / 10k rowing sessions (have done a few), but I am still concerned about muscle loss. Ideally, I'd like to row 5k-10k sessions every day, or at least 5 days a week. I have the enthusiasm, but I'm not sure if it'll send me backwards. I know that high intensity intervals are good, so I do them quite a bit (15 minute grueling sessions), but what I would like to know from experienced rowers is: does endurance distance rowing (25-50 mins or so) result in muscle loss, and if so, what's the best way I can offset this other than my weight-training program? The reason I like distance rowing (or running) is that it just murdurs calories on the spot, and it keeps my blood chemistry in great shape (cholesterol and trigylerides were a MAJOR problem for me 6 months ago).<br /><br />Will 5k / 10k rowing sessions result in lost muscle like my 6 - 7.5 mph five-mile runs did? Will it negate my strength training to more or less the same extent as my running did?<br /><br />I'd really appreciate views on this - information out there is conflicting and confusing. <br /><br />Regards,<br /><br />WiZlon

<!--QuoteBegin-WiZlon+Apr 24 2005, 02:17 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(WiZlon @ Apr 24 2005, 02:17 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I note this thread with great interest.  I used to do a fair bit of running - 30 miles a week, in 5-13 mile stints.  I found I was losing weight - fat (yippee) and latterly discovered I was also losing muscle (uh-oh).<br /><br />I bought the Concept 2 rower because my Doc said that too much running at my age (44) isn't too good - especially as I had never run before.  A developing click in my right leg (which I can hear from time to time when I straighten my leg or move it in an awkward way - no pain though?) convinced me he's probably right.  <br /><br />My running is now down from about 110 miles / month to about 25 miles / month (and some of that is now interval running / sprinting).  I may reduce that further still - depends on whether my knee stops clicking.  I also now strength train quite hard 3 times a week, which has restored some of the lost muscle, and I am keen to keep it, as it is helping me lose weight of course.<br /><br />What I'd like to do is 5k / 10k rowing sessions (have done a few), but I am still concerned about muscle loss.  Ideally, I'd like to row 5k-10k sessions every day, or at least 5 days a week.  I have the enthusiasm, but I'm not sure if it'll send me backwards.  I know that high intensity intervals are good, so I do them quite a bit (15 minute grueling sessions), but what I would like to know from experienced rowers is: does endurance distance rowing (25-50 mins or so) result in muscle loss, and if so, what's the best way I can offset this other than my weight-training program?  The reason I like distance rowing (or running) is that it just murdurs calories on the spot, and it keeps my blood chemistry in great shape (cholesterol and trigylerides were a MAJOR problem for me 6 months ago).<br /><br />Will 5k / 10k rowing sessions result in lost muscle like my 6 - 7.5 mph five-mile runs did?  Will it negate my strength training to more or less the same extent as my running did?<br /><br />I'd really appreciate views on this - information out there is conflicting and confusing. <br /><br />Regards,<br /><br />WiZlon  <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />This may be tangential to your post but I've noticed the thing that doesn't get discussed too much is that independent of large amounts of endurance exercise, once you get to a certain age, you're likely to experience some degree of age-related muscular atrophy. <br /><br />If you're quite sedentary, rowing or running would probably increase your muscle mass over baseline. But if you have been a runner or rower (with little or no strength training) your whole life, you might find over time that your lean body mass is gradually decreasing not necessarily because of your endurance training but in spite of it i.e. endurance based exercise is not providing sufficient stimulation to stave off age-related muscle atrophy.<br /><br /><br />

I can't see how anyone would lose muscle due to endurance training unless they also starved themselves at the same time. Exercising the muscles will keep them developed. They may lose a bit of water mass, but the muscle should still remain.<br /><br />My guess is that there is some fat that is lost somewhere when you start endurance training. Strength training doesn't eat up fat the same way as endurance training. For example, who looks like they might have a higher % of fat - the champion Russian wieght lifter Alexis or the winner of the Boston Marathon?<br /><br />Cheers,<br /><br />Paul Flack

Hmmmmm. Interesting topic. There are many, many on here that can give you a much more informed answer than I, but I thought I might throw in some experiencal thoughts. I am 55, have been rowing/erging for about ten years. Started erging first then after a year or so took up rowing. My weight dropped from around 190 to 155 (where the insurance charts say I should be at 5'8") in about 2 years. Through that time and still today, I still use the weight room. Twice a week moderate and twice lighter. For the last couple of years my goal in the weight room has been to just maintain what I have. I have also in the last year started cycling competitively with OK results. I average about 40 minutes a day on the erg, around 10k depending on what I'm doing: ie steady state, intervals, irritating Paul S., or whatever. I ride about 25-30 miles a day at moderate to high speed except race days. I back off two days a week, from nothing to just taking a ride with my wife. Weather here is still not allowing much time on the water so rowing will have to factor back in soon. Oh yeah and I nap a lot, thats for you Bayko.

<!--QuoteBegin-Canoeist+Apr 25 2005, 12:22 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Canoeist @ Apr 25 2005, 12:22 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I can't see how anyone would lose muscle due to endurance training unless they also starved themselves at the same time.  Exercising the muscles will keep them developed.  They may lose a bit of water mass, but the muscle should still remain.<br /><br />My guess is that there is some fat that is lost somewhere when you start endurance training.  Strength training doesn't eat up fat the same way as endurance training.  For example, who looks like they might have a higher % of fat - the champion Russian wieght lifter Alexis or the winner of the Boston Marathon?<br /><br />Cheers,<br /><br />Paul Flack <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />I suppose one scenario could be this, I'm just speculating, but it's a possible way to explain muscle loss from endurance running: <br /><br />When running, there are lots of dynamic work with low weights and high reps. This tears the muscles down just as much as high load few reps. The body super compensates based on finding torn residues, but also based on some chemical signal being activated to a level based on how high the intensity of the work is. Since this will not be activated as much as when doing high loads, there will be less compensation. The result will be a muscle mass point of equilibirum lower than that achieved when one also gets the secondary signal to super compensate. If you are above the equilibrium point for the type of training you do, you will loose mass. If you are lower, you will gain.<br /><br />When rowing, there are less rupture of the muscle tissue since there are no excentric work. Also, the load is much higher. Lesser break down needs lesser rebuilding and suitably also give lesser signal 1 to rebuild. So with this, there should be little change in muscle mass. However, there is more signal 2 because of higher intensity. Hence, rowing will have an equilibirum point for muscle mass higher than running, as well as a slower adaption to a lower equilibrium, meaning complimentary weight training mass will remain to a much larger degree than with running and rowing alone will slowly build mass to a level higher than running. <br /><br />Just a thought

<!--QuoteBegin-Canoeist+Apr 25 2005, 08:22 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Canoeist @ Apr 25 2005, 08:22 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I can't see how anyone would lose muscle due to endurance training unless they also starved themselves at the same time.  Exercising the muscles will keep them developed.  They may lose a bit of water mass, but the muscle should still remain.<br /><br />My guess is that there is some fat that is lost somewhere when you start endurance training.  Strength training doesn't eat up fat the same way as endurance training.  For example, who looks like they might have a higher % of fat - the champion Russian wieght lifter Alexis or the winner of the Boston Marathon?<br /><br />Cheers,<br /><br />Paul Flack <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br /><br />Endurance based exercise, while working your muscles, doesn't alone provide enough stimulation to support the levels of hypertrophy that some athletes possess. For example, if someone has a fair amount of muscle mass from years of lifting weights and then suddenly just rows exclusively, I could see how that person might lose some muscle mass. <br /><br />Are you talking about Vasily Alexeyev? Yes, he carried a lot of fat <b>but</b> he's in the Super Heavyweight category. Instead check out how lean many of the Olympic weightlifters are in the the middle- and lower- weight categories. As lean as champion marathoners but with a lot more muscle mass. Yet, most do very little endurance training. Same goes for sprinters - as lean or leaner than marathoners - but with little endurance training.

I agree that you could lose muscle mass if you changed sports. A weight lifter that took up running most probably would lose some of their muscle mass in their upper body.<br /><br />Yes, I meant Vasily Alexeyev. I didn't have any super heavyweight marathon runners to compare him to. A comparison between the lightweight weight lifters and the marathon runners is probably more appropriate. Both try to lose all extra body fat in order to improve performance.<br /><br />Regards,<br /><br />Paul Flack<br />

<!--QuoteBegin-dennish+Apr 25 2005, 06:05 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(dennish @ Apr 25 2005, 06:05 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Oh yeah and I nap a lot, thats for you Bayko.  <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Dennis....... you swine! I am so jealous. <br /><br />Rick<br />

There does seem to be a balance between strength and endurance, and we will gravitate towards what we train for.<br /><br />Several times over the years some of my running and triathlete friends and me have used injury breaks from running to try to increase strength. Usually simple things like chinups and pushups. We would always quickly make gains (much as Jim Barry has been doing lately) and sometimes double our reps from what we were doing as supplements to running. When the injury healed and we resumed running we always tried to maintain our new strength. Not being greedy and trying to continue increasing, but just maintain what we had worked up to. Without fail, as our endurance training approached previous levels our chinup and pushup ability diminished to previous levels<br /><br />For perfect health there is surely a balance point of strength and endurance. Unfortunately, I suspect that someone at that perfect point would not be winning any high level competitions at either the strength or endurance arenas.<br /><br />It is true that I am one of those guys that Diesel would not want to look like , but doing well in endurance events always gave me the most satisfaction. Different strokes for different folks. When I need heavy things like my wife's treadmill moved to a different place in the house though, I don't call on my marathon friends. Gimme a Diesel for that any day.<br /><br />Rick

<!--QuoteBegin-Bayko+Apr 27 2005, 11:38 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Bayko @ Apr 27 2005, 11:38 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->For perfect health there is surely a balance point of strength and endurance.  Unfortunately, I suspect that someone at that perfect point would not be winning any high level competitions at either the strength or endurance arenas. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />I figure since most of us are not really optimally designed to win either high level competitions of strength or endurance (it would probably be evident fairly early on in life, if you were) then it's really no loss to have a little of both <br />