Concept2 Forum

I have been trying to get my DPS up to 10, though am struggling in faster pieces. At 33spm I am closer to 8.5. At 35 it is about 8. My question is - should the DPS goal be adjusted for a LWT (I am 152)? <br /><br />Aaron

Why would you want to do 10mps?<br /><br />It may be usefull at some stroke rates for some people, but not for lightweights at 35spm.<br /><br />10mps at 35spm would give you a 2k time of 5:42.6 which would be pretty impressive for a lightweight

<!--QuoteBegin-Cran+Apr 11 2005, 01:09 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Cran @ Apr 11 2005, 01:09 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why would you want to do 10mps?<br /><br />It may be usefull at some stroke rates for some people, but not for lightweights at 35spm.<br /><br />10mps at 35spm would give you a 2k time of 5:42.6 which would be pretty impressive for a lightweight <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Well, it was only a goal...kidding - what I meant is what is a good target for a LWT?

I really like most of my development work at 10mps. For me, the paces and rates are nice combinations and proven (to me) to build up MOST (but not all) of my strength and my endurance, hand in hand. According to the Danish National Team coach posting on the UK site <br /><a href='http://www.concept2.co.uk/guide/guide.p ... sonalising' target='_blank'>http://www.concept2.co.uk/guide/guide.p ... ing</a><br /><br /> , it is very reasonable to find a lightweight like me working at less than 10mps for the higher race specific intensities. I can send you a spreadsheet that you plug in your 2k test power (watts) and it works out the power/pace for the different bands(levels) of development. For me, a 300 watt test would suggest that I work at these paces (mps does move depending on your initial test):<br /><br />Anaerobic Development: (1:42 to 1:39) (short intervals) 36 to 46 spm (~ 8 mps)<br /><br />Aerobic Development: (1:49 to 1:45) (medium intervals) 30 to 34 spm ( ~ 9 mps)<br /><br />Aerobic/Endurance: (1:58 to 1:54) (long intervals) 26 to 28 spm (~ 10 mps) <br /><br />Endurance: 60 minutes (2:05 to 1:59) continuous 22 to 24 spm ( ~ 11 mps) <br /><br />Recovery Rowing: ( 2:13 to 2:05) spm not specified <br /><br /><br />(mps does move depending on your initial test):<br />

<!--QuoteBegin-Jim Barry+Apr 11 2005, 02:42 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Jim Barry @ Apr 11 2005, 02:42 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I really like most of my development work at 10mps. For me, the paces and rates are nice combinations and proven (to me) to build up MOST (but not all) of my strength and my endurance, hand in hand. According to the Danish National Team coach posting on the UK site <br /><a href='http://www.concept2.co.uk/guide/guide.p ... sonalising' target='_blank'>http://www.concept2.co.uk/guide/guide.p ... ing</a><br /><br /> , it is very reasonable to find a lightweight like me working at less than 10mps for the higher race specific intensities. I can send you a spreadsheet that you plug in your 2k test power (watts) and it works out the power/pace for the different bands(levels) of development. For me, a 300 watt test would suggest that I work at these paces (mps does move depending on your initial test):<br /><br />Anaerobic Development: (1:42 to 1:39)  (short intervals) 36 to 46 spm (~ 8 mps)<br /><br />Aerobic Development: (1:49 to 1:45) (medium intervals) 30 to 34 spm ( ~ 9 mps)<br /><br />Aerobic/Endurance: (1:58 to 1:54) (long intervals) 26 to 28 spm (~ 10 mps) <br /><br />Endurance:  60 minutes (2:05 to 1:59) continuous 22 to 24 spm ( ~ 11 mps) <br /><br />Recovery Rowing: ( 2:13 to 2:05)  spm not specified  <br /><br /><br />(mps does move depending on your initial test): <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Jim--<br /><br />Sure, doing 10MPS is good in the middle range of rates (26-28 spm), but since your mps changes as you change rates, like mine, your case argues against the use of mps as a guide to training. That is, mps exactly _obscures_ what is remaining constant in your training at different rates. And what is that? SPI. You are rowing right about 8.5-9 SPI at all rates and paces. <br /><br />To improve, you should try to develop a stronger stroke (a higher SPI), not maintain 10 mps.<br /><br />9.5 or 10.0 SPI?<br /><br />I have been rowing at about 11.5 SPI lately, higher than that when I can.<br /><br />8 SPI at 36 spm is 7:06<br />9 SPI at 36 spm is 6:50<br />10 SPI at 36 spm is 6:36<br />11 SPI at 36 spm is 6:24<br />12 SPI at 36 spm is 6:13.<br /><br />ranger

8.5 meters per stroke is fine for a lightweight.<br /><br />Long time World Record holder Eskild Ebbesen and current World Record holder Elia Luini both row at 8 meters per stroke.<br /><br />Personally I use the same meters per stroke for all distances.<br /><br />Another way is to disregard distance per stroke and instead aim for a certain strokes per minute based on speed and event. An example for lightweights is 36-40+ spm for 2k, and other distances based on the same resulting distance per stroke. This might be 33-35 spm for a 5k and 30-31 spm for the marathon.

I agree with Ranger on this one.<br /><br />SPI (watts/stroke rate)is key. If you keep MPS (meters per stroke) constant, then the power of the stroke varies over different stroke rates.<br /><br />If you keep SPI constant, then you're working your skeletal muscles at a constant contraction intensity.<br /><br />If you have an ultimte goal at a specific race distance and all other goals are secondary, figure out the SPI for your ideal performance at that distance and then train at that SPI.<br /><br />For example my ultimate goal for this year is a 2k @ 6:40. I tend to race at 34 s/m. A 6:40 2k is equal to 350 watts. So my goal SPI is 350/34 - or 10.3. So then I do my distance work and intervals at SPI of 10.3. <br /><br />Yesterday I did 42 minutes @ 186w & @ 18 s/m. I'm slowly progressing my distance work to 60% of 350 watts or 210 watts @ 20 s/m.<br /><br />Today I'm doing 2k intervals @ 248w & 24 s/m. I'm slowly progressing my intervals to 80% of 350 watts or 280 watts @ 27 s/m. <br /><br />Every once in a while I do a 2k @ 100% watts i.e. a test piece at the next level on my step to my goal of 2k @ 350 watts. My last test piece I did 300 watts @ 29 s/m. My next test piece is going to be @ 310 watts and @ 30 s/m. Remember, I'm on my way to 2k @ 350 watts and @ 34 s/m.<br /><br />As an aside, I'm also progressing my drag factor down to 115 over time, I'm training now at 135. <br /><br />Jim Pisano<br /><br />

Power always varies over different stroke rates. You can generate more power at 36 spm than you can at 30 spm, than you can at 24 spm, than you can at 18 spm etc.<br /><br />Also, the power of the stroke varies over distance. You can generate more power for a 2k than you can for a 10k.<br /><br />If you can't generate more power at higher stroke rates, then there is something major wrong with your stroke.<br /><br />The spi does not measure power, as it disregards time.<br /><br />I can go a higher spi for an hour, than the spi for my 2k. So???? So what?? That is meaningless.<br /><br />If you want to practice power over distance, then see how close you can get to your 2k wattage for an hour. This is what Rod Freed, Eskild Ebbesen, Elia Luini and other top lightweights do.<br />

<!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Apr 12 2005, 09:57 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Apr 12 2005, 09:57 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The spi does not measure power, as it disregards time. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Huh? The SPI is average wattage divided by stroke rate. By definition it is a measure of power. It measures power per stroke.<br /><br /><br /><br />

<!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Apr 12 2005, 09:57 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Apr 12 2005, 09:57 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The spi does not measure power, as it disregards time. <br /> </td></tr></table><br />Watts is the measure of power, and converts this power to pace as shown on the monitor.<br /><br />I can go for a higher spi FOR AN HOUR, than the spi for my 2k. If spi was a measure of power than I wouldn't be able to do that, but I can. This is because the spi is watts WITHOUT TIME, so it is NOT a measure of power and is meaningless.<br /><br />The percentage of your 2k WATTS that you can maintain for an hour, is a measure of your 2k power that you can maintain for an hour.

<!--QuoteBegin-NavigationHazard+Apr 12 2005, 07:51 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(NavigationHazard @ Apr 12 2005, 07:51 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Apr 12 2005, 09:57 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Apr 12 2005, 09:57 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The spi does not measure power, as it disregards time. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Huh? The SPI is average wattage divided by stroke rate. By definition it is a measure of power. It measures power per stroke. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />I'm sure it would be fun, although pointless, to play some "johnnyball" with this, however I will be kind, even though Heir Rupp is only screaming about SPI being "meaningless" because he likes to attempt insults.<br /><br />SPI is a tricky unit, as it is subject to the same sort of gaming that can be done with the displayed pace. However when coupled with a constant DPS you will find that SPI always is higher when the pace is increased. The benefit of this coupling is that we can truly manipulate the type of training we are after, and get the appropriate adaptations to occur. Another, is that we will also train to get our ratio into a well established habit. We can argue all day long about what ratio might be best for an individual, though since I only deal with the Erg as a training tool for Rowing on the water and that is generally a team endeavor, having the same ratio for everyone in the same boat is going to be rather important.<br /><br />Frankly I doubt that Johnny boy can hold a higher SPI for an hour than he can for a 2k, but since he claims to be able to, maybe he will provide the numbers to back that up.<br /><br />The problem with increasing SPI by lowering the rate, is that at the same time, the ratio is expanding greatly. I.e. a 2:00 pace at SR=25 would be about SPI=8 the ratio would be dependent on the Drag Factor. If the Rate changed to SR=20, the SPI would be about 10, and the ratio would have to increase if the DF were left alone. <br />The Pace is the same.<br />Is one harder than the other?<br />Are they going to cause the same adaptation to occur?<br />Would HR be the same?<br /><br />Finally, I'll repeat something I've said several times. HR is not what determines the Training band, power and force production do; HR just happens to be correlated in various ways. So for a given person, it is possible to specify rate/pace combinations to achieve thr desired training effect. I go one step toward making this simple with S10PS, and specifying Pace targets (rate takes care of itself, along with ratio.)<br /><br />Anyway, don't get too caught up in SPI, the only thing that I can say fairly concretely about it, is that the overall goal in training is to be able to increase SPI as SR increases, once SPI begins to decrease while rate is increasing, that generally marks the beginning of the end for the althletes performance. i.e. They have gone beyond their threshold of trading rate for pace.<br />

Eskild Ebbeson, long time lightweight World Record holder:<br /><br />2k: 6:03.2<br />pace: 1:30.8<br />spm: 41.3 spm<br /><br />watts: 467.53<br />power: 467.53 watts<br /><br />watts/time (spi): 11.32<br /><br />meters per stroke: 8.0

I'm not goin to make any comment about distance per stroke however with SPI, power is measure in watts and power is W/T or energy spent over time and stroke rate is S/T specifically strokes over 60 seconds. Lets say if we measured Stroke rate in strokes per second then if we divide power by stroke rate it gives us: <br /><br />(W/T)/(S/T) = (W/T)*(T/S) = W/S, or work per stroke/energy used per stroke so whoever said it doesnt take into account time was right, however, this calculation was done using stroke rate measured in stroke per second so using spm would stuff it up a bit.

SPI is meaningless<br /><br />Pulling as 20 strokes per minute generating 200 Watts Average, gives an SPI of 10 and a time for 500m of about 2:00<br /><br />Pulling at 25 strokes per minute generating 250 Watts Average, gives an SPI of 10 and a time for 500m of about 1:52<br /><br />Now you can talk all you want about how many strokes were used to cover the 500 meters and that since the stroke power must be equal because the SPI is equal. But you neglect one fact, at the end of the 500 meter piece you display the wattage, this wattage is the average for the 500 meters, each and every stroke. thats 20 strokes at 200 watts per stroke or 25 strokes at 250 watts per stroke and clearly 250 watts per stroke is more power than 200 watts per stroke.<br /><br />The main problem is that you can take any 2 numbers and divide them to get an index but that does not make them meaningful. In this case you have Strokes per minute and watts, which is foot pounds per second or newton meters per second. Just how again is this meaningful.

<!--QuoteBegin-Dickie+Apr 13 2005, 12:08 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Dickie @ Apr 13 2005, 12:08 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->SPI is meaningless<br /><br />Pulling as 20 strokes per minute generating 200 Watts Average, gives an SPI of 10 and a time for 500m of about 2:00<br /><br />Pulling at 25 strokes per minute generating 250 Watts Average, gives an SPI of 10 and a time for 500m of about 1:52<br /><br />Now you can talk all you want about how many strokes were used to cover the 500 meters and that since the stroke power must be equal because the SPI is equal. But you neglect one fact, at the end of the 500 meter piece you display the wattage, this wattage is the average for the 500 meters, each and every stroke. thats 20 strokes at 200 watts per stroke or 25 strokes at 250 watts per stroke and clearly 250 watts per stroke is more power than 200 watts per stroke.<br /><br />The main problem is that you can take any 2 numbers and divide them to get an index but that does not make them meaningful.  In this case you have Strokes per minute and watts, which is foot pounds per second or newton meters per second. Just how again is this meaningful. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Whether it's a boat or an erg, it seems to me if you want to go faster for a given distance you need to apply more power. You can do so either by increasing the stroke rate at a given spi, or by increasing the spi at a given stroke rate, or via some combination thereof. <br /><br />As a practical matter, the upper limit of stroke rates for racing distances is not all that high: surely it is less than 50 for ergs and perhaps somewhat less (stability is an issue) for boats?! <br /><br />Whatever it is, assuming we want to get faster, it behooves us also to figure out how to apply more power per stroke. One way to illustrate this is to hold distance and stroke rate constant while adding effort. The increased power input will translate into a faster pace, and the higher workload can be expressed as a rise in the SPI. Understood in this context, the index seems to me not entirely devoid of meaning.<br /><br />But whadda I know; you may well be right.<br /><br />