Concept2 Forum

Okay<br /><br />Trying now to incorporate intervals once or twice a week in addition to the longer stuff.<br /><br />Thinking of trying 16x 250 to keep things interesting.<br /><br />Any ideas what the benefits of this type of training is compared to 8x500? Anyone doing this type of session?<br /><br />Also, if the 8x500 should be done at 2k less 5 sec - what should the pace be for 16x250?......and, what should the rest be?<br /><br />Cheers<br />RichardT<br />

I would think that the 250's would be about 95% max intensity... I've never done a 250m interval workout before though<br /><br />I usually do my 500's at my 2k minus 5-7 seconds

An alternative approach would be to do these intervals @ 2K pace but with much shorter recoveries (e.g 90 secs. recovery for the 500m reps, 45 secs recovery for the 250m reps)

I like 250s in Zatopek format (80 x 250 @ 2K, 250m paddle inbetween). These would be especially good, I think, if you could paddle steadily (say at 2:00 pace) in the rest segments. I usually rest at a slower pace than that in Zatopeks, but I would like to bring that resting pace up to 2:00.<br /><br />ranger

250m work does not seem that popular in rowing (not that this invalidates it), but you are not too far off from doing the classic 1 minute "on"(2k race pace or better) and 1 minute "off" (easy rowing). 2k race pace is much like what physiologists call "velocity at V02max". (typically what speed you go when given 6 minutes to go "all out"). Work by Veronique Billat, the inventor of the term vVo2max and author of over 50 papers on endurance physiology, shows athletes respond very well to this intensity and rest organization. (what rowers knew all along!). Most find about 15 reps of this to work you pretty well. If you can do more, go faster next time.

Ranger, 80 x 250 at 2k? This sounds like another fable.

Ranger's 'Zatopek' workout does seem unbelievable but that doesn't mean it's not true. [On the old forum, there was a tremendous amount of verbiage and vitriol on this very issue.] Rich is legendary for his endurance. His warmups are many mortals' hard workouts, for example. The 80 x 250 with 250 in between is nearly 40K!!! Implicitly, Jim would argue that he should go faster on the sprints. That said, these workouts have paid great dividends from Ranger. For the rest of us, they appear unattainable.<br /><br />As for me, when I do the 15x250, I usually do an easy 2k before after warming up. Then, I'll do the intervals with 45 seconds rest and then cool down. Certainly, the 250 intervals have value but I believe the 500 to 750 ones are most useful for 2K prep. No matter the length, the ratio of work to recovery determines a great deal. Another way of doing this is to set a given time or distance on the monitor and do 1 min on/1 min off or 250 on/250 off, or pyramids which build up the work time, etc.<br /><br />Neil

No. I refuse to believe that. Especially for someone with a 6:28 -- it just isn't physically possible.

<!--QuoteBegin-starboardrigged1seat+Feb 15 2005, 01:18 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(starboardrigged1seat @ Feb 15 2005, 01:18 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->No.  I refuse to believe that.  Especially for someone with a 6:28 -- it just isn't physically possible. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />And of course. at the ripe old age of 18, you are an expert at such things. That kind of statement only shows your immaturity. That 6:28 was the world record. I believe that there are others on this forum who could at least approach an 80 by 250 at 2k pace. Indeed anyone with a fast marathon time could probably approach it.<br /><br />I for one believe that he can do it, I am no marathoner, in fact by endurance is quite lousy and i can manage 20 by 250 at 2k pace.<br /><br />Fred dickie

Actually, I have no bones against Ranger's 80x250m point. He does agree that real speed work is more like 8x500m at 2k-4? (I think). 8x500m is not that unlike 15 reps of 1 minute on/ 1 minute off at < 2k race pace (maybe 500m work is a bit more of a burner and more valuable). If I recall the 80x250 or any other combination of interval work covering some 40,000m has been explained as being more of an alternative workout in the base phase. I've actually done two near "Zatopeks", 100 reps of (100m on (1k race pace) 200m off (easy paddle)) and would describe the workouts as being more or less a really engaging way to get though a lot of rowing (30,000 meters and 3 hours never went by so fast). A lot of rowing has its merits and it was seemingly a good way to expose yourself to the technical aspects of "fast rowing". But, it missed the real stress of what those blistering paces do to you after a couple of minutes and in my book, if you miss a stress, you miss an adaptation. <br /><br />

<!--QuoteBegin-Dickie+Feb 15 2005, 01:06 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Dickie @ Feb 15 2005, 01:06 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-starboardrigged1seat+Feb 15 2005, 01:18 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(starboardrigged1seat @ Feb 15 2005, 01:18 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->No.  I refuse to believe that.  Especially for someone with a 6:28 -- it just isn't physically possible. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />And of course. at the ripe old age of 18, you are an expert at such things. That kind of statement only shows your immaturity. That 6:28 was the world record. I believe that there are others on this forum who could at least approach an 80 by 250 at 2k pace. Indeed anyone with a fast marathon time could probably approach it.<br /><br />I for one believe that he can do it, I am no marathoner, in fact by endurance is quite lousy and i can manage 20 by 250 at 2k pace.<br /><br />Fred dickie <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Alright. I have no idea who you are. You have no idea who I am either. You don't know me, you don't know my training background, you do not know who I have been coached by, you don't know my erg scores. And from my experience, 80 x 250 at 2k pace is a retarded workout. There is never any need to do that -- I don't care what you're training for. Marathon, hour of power, 2k personal best attempt, 6k test for national team selection, worlds. There is no reason. I have not heard of a single reputable rowing coach ever making somebody do something like that. So Fred, thank you for getting involved, it did a whole lot of nothing. If you can show me a well-known coach or rower producing elite level results who have used that workout with success, I will change my mind. Until then, it goes against everything that I know about exercise physiology and common sense.<br />

<!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I for one believe that he can do it, I am no marathoner, in fact by endurance is quite lousy and i can manage 20 by 250 at 2k pace.<br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />With all due respect, 20 x 250 is a novice workout. If you choose to use personal background as a stance try to make it something respectable like 4 x (20 x 250). <br /><br />Next time you decide to get personal, specifically calling someone immature or any other insult, get a base to stand on or you display your own immaturity. Sorry for interrupting this but lets keep the personal insults and commentary outside of this debate (and yes I know my first line in this post is somewhat personal, but it was done to make a point of how quickly it can turn around on you). SR1S has stated he finds this to be physically impossible; use studies, articles, or some other form of verifiable evidence to prove your point. Personal stories or jabs will solve nothing.

<!--QuoteBegin-starboardrigged1seat+Feb 15 2005, 12:03 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(starboardrigged1seat @ Feb 15 2005, 12:03 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I have not heard of a single reputable rowing coach<br /> </td></tr></table><br />Indeed, it appears they are quite difficult to find.<br /><br />I did 3 sets of 40 or 50 times 100 meters at 2k pace, with 100 meters between a year or two ago -- that's 24-30k total -- and it was a good session but no big deal otherwise. Also I did 10k of 100s at 2k pace with 100 between and the overall pace at 2k +10.<br /><br />You should experiment to find out what works, before stating some opinion based on a textbook that has absolutely no meaning whatsoever.

Starboardriggedseat1-<br /><br />You have changed the assertion in your posts from (I'm paraphrasing) "it's not possible" to "it's not a good workout." <br /><br />Clearly, "it's not possible" is an unprovable assertion and it making such as comment you are essentially calling Ranger a liar. I believe he has done it and I find it amazing.<br /><br />"It's not a good workout" is simply an opinion. I would tend to agree that other workouts would be a better use of one's time. That said, Ranger is the world record holder.<br /><br />Neil

<!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The 80 x 250 with 250 in between is nearly 40K!!! </td></tr></table><br /><br />It is of course 39750k if you stop after the last hard 250, 40k if you follow it with an 80th 250m paddle. <br /><br /><!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I like 250s in Zatopek format (80 x 250 @ 2K, 250m paddle inbetween). These would be especially good, I think, if you could paddle steadily (say at 2:00 pace) in the rest segments. I usually rest at a slower pace than that in Zatopeks, but I would like to bring that resting pace up to 2:00. </td></tr></table><br /><br />Assuming a 6:28 2k, which is Ranger's record, 2k pace for 500m is 1:37. If you do 80 250m reps at that pace it'll take you 80 x 48.5 seconds, or 64:40. To do 80 x 250m paddles at 2:00 pace will take you 80 x 1 min, or 80 mins flat. Total for 40,000m = 2:24.40.<br /><br />To put this in perspective, if you went on to do a full marathon (42,195m) at the same average pace as your proposed Zatopek workout (1:48.5), you'd end up with 2:32:36.3. <br /><br />That's faster than Richard White's 2:33:34, which AFAIK is a new all-time best for lightweight men regardless of age. It's also 7 minutes faster than Graham Watt's 2:39:42.5, which used to be the lightweight record.<br /><br />Let's try someone else. Xeno Muller's a 6-min 2k heavyweight guy. Were he to do 80 x 250 at 1:30 pace + 80 x 250 paddles at 2:00 pace, he'd finish a 40k <i>workout</i> in 2:20:00. And if he went on for another 2195 at the same pace he'd be looking at a 2:27:41 marathon <i>as a Zatopek workout</i>. Not to shower cold water on the idea, but the current world record by <i>anyone</i> for a <i>dedicated attempt</i> at the distance is 2:28:13.7 and Xeno's 30-and-up world best is 2:30.08.8.... <br /><br />I don't want to suggest that such a workout can't ever be done by someone, or that Ranger can't/won't be the one to do it. But it seems heroically difficult.... <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />