The Trend That Is Reduced Df

[[old] george nz]

There appears to be a growing trend towards reduced DF for young and old big and small. <br /><br />Now I am not talking here about dropping if from 180 or 200 down but the fact that a lot of people are now rowing in the low 120's, and I am also only talking about erging (not trying to simulate otw rowing)<br /><br />I am aware of the 'easier sensation' that a reduce drag causes (at the catch) and I am aware that everyone is different in physiology - but I am also aware that at a lower drag you need to be quicker in the drive and generally rate higher? to achieve the same pace as you would with a higher drag.<br /><br />So why not teach yourself to drive faster and rate higher at the DF your at now than drop it to make it feel easier.<br /><br />Just to stress again I am only talking about dropping from starting Df's of say 130 - 150, not the BIG ones - so a subtle change.<br /><br />George<br /><br />ps Past WR holders need not relate again details of past successes, we know we know we know

[[old] hjs]

<!--QuoteBegin-george nz+Nov 30 2005, 08:15 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(george nz @ Nov 30 2005, 08:15 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There appears to be a growing trend towards reduced DF for young and old big and small.  <br /><br />Now I am not talking here about dropping if from 180 or 200 down but the fact that a lot of people are now rowing in the low 120's, and I am also only talking about erging (not trying to simulate otw rowing)<br /><br />I am aware of the 'easier sensation' that a reduce drag causes (at the catch) and I am aware that everyone is different in physiology - but I am also aware that at a lower drag you need to be quicker in the drive and generally rate higher? to achieve the same pace as you would with a higher drag.<br /><br />So why not teach yourself to drive faster and rate higher at the DF your at now than drop it to make it feel easier.<br /><br />Just to stress again I am only talking about dropping from starting Df's of say 130 - 150, not the BIG ones - so a subtle change.<br /><br />George<br /><br /><br />Hey george,<br /><br />A few months ago I started rowing again. Due to backproblems I use an very low drag. 90/95. I have no problems with keeping pace and don't need to rate higer. <br />Only fast rowing, unther 1.30 is someting I can't with such a low drag. <br /><br />ps Past WR holders need not relate again details of past successes, we know we know we know <br /> </td></tr></table><br />

[[old] tomhz]

<!--QuoteBegin-hjs+Dec 1 2005, 10:01 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(hjs @ Dec 1 2005, 10:01 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><br />Hey george,<br /><br />A few months ago I started rowing again. Due to backproblems I use an very low drag. 90/95. I have no problems with keeping pace and don't need to rate higer. <br />Only fast rowing, unther 1.30 is someting I can't with such a low drag. <br /> <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />George,<br /><br />same for me too. I dropped from 125 to 105 at the start of the this season. My Stroke Rate didn't change and my pace didn't either. <br />However, I do an all-out 500m with DF 130. <br /><br />Tom

[[old] PaulS]

<!--QuoteBegin-george nz+Nov 30 2005, 11:15 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(george nz @ Nov 30 2005, 11:15 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There appears to be a growing trend towards reduced DF for young and old big and small.  <br /><br />Now I am not talking here about dropping if from 180 or 200 down but the fact that a lot of people are now rowing in the low 120's, and I am also only talking about erging (not trying to simulate otw rowing)<br /><br />I am aware of the 'easier sensation' that a reduce drag causes (at the catch) and I am aware that everyone is different in physiology - but I am also aware that at a lower drag you need to be quicker in the drive and generally rate higher? to achieve the same pace as you would with a higher drag.<br /><br />So why not teach yourself to drive faster and rate higher at the DF your at now than drop it to make it feel easier.<br /><br />Just to stress again I am only talking about dropping from starting Df's of say 130 - 150, not the BIG ones - so a subtle change.<br /><br />George<br /><br />ps Past WR holders need not relate again details of past successes, we know we know we know <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />As I've said for a very long time: <br />"You can agree with me now, or you can agree with me later." <br />(realizing that there are those that will strive to never agree) <br /><br />As has been mentioned, the rate does not need to change particularly due to DF, what will change is ratio, and that will be a product of Stroke length and Distance per Stroke. What will come to light eventually is that higher DF's will be used by shorter/lighter competitors that rate higher and take advantage of the greater credit per flywheel rev, while allowing less flywheel slowing due to the shorter recovery distance/time. i.e. if I row S10PS at different DF's, regardless of pace, the drive:recovery ratio gets smaller as the DF increases. You can play with the permutations of that until the cows come home (or maybe that's "until the sheep come home" in NZ). <br /><br />Cheers.

[[old] ranger]

<!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I am aware of the 'easier sensation' that a reduce drag causes (at the catch) and I am aware that everyone is different in physiology - but I am also aware that at a lower drag you need to be quicker in the drive and generally rate higher? to achieve the same pace as you would with a higher drag.<br /><br />So why not teach yourself to drive faster and rate higher at the DF your at now than drop it to make it feel easier. </td></tr></table><br /><br />My experience is that it is the lower drag that _lets_ you be faster and longer--and still survive!. In general, at higher drag, in order to survive, you need to be shorter and slower.<br /><br />BTW, at low drag, the wheel spins more freely. Therefore, low drag encourages a lower, not a higher, stroke rate. A longer recovery is more of an asset at low drag than at high. <br /><br />ranger

[[old] csabour]

this is kinda related to pace but i found that when i rowed with a lower df (110 - 115) i was using my arms too much for my tastes, i found that i was breaking the arms too early at the catch. this is fine for long pieces but when the intensity goes up the arms get tired and that ends up being my bottleneck...<br /><br />so what i've done is changed my df to 130 and now if i do break with my arms after 200 strokes i get soreness in the arms and that gives incentive for me to fix my technique.

[[old] PaulS]

<!--QuoteBegin-csabour+Dec 1 2005, 08:30 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(csabour @ Dec 1 2005, 08:30 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->this is kinda related to pace but i found that when i rowed with a lower df (110 - 115) i was using my arms too much for my tastes, i found that i was breaking the arms too early at the catch.  this is fine for long pieces but when the intensity goes up the arms get tired and that ends up being my bottleneck...<br /><br />so what i've done is changed my df to 130 and now if i do break with my arms after 200 strokes i get soreness in the arms and that gives incentive for me to fix my technique. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />You are just slowing down the flywheel so that you are able to catch it with the quickness of your legs (the real problem to fix). You may have to fight to not use the arms too early at lower DF's, but it's worth it in the quckness gained for the legs. Also addressed in another thread is that bringing the arms in slightly is not that big of a deal, we're not deadlifting. (There are very well known World Champions that "catch with the arms" and though not optimal, they are able to make due.)

[[old] george nz]

Paul I have seen the comment made that with a higher drag the drive is shorter - cant for the life of me see why unless the person was rushing the stroke to try and reduce the 'stress' at the catch.<br /><br />Let me ask this in 'sheep' terms . If my drive length stays the same (assuming that at a lower drag I am still quick enough to catch the wheel at the same sport), and at a rate of say fixed rate I keep the drive time and recovery ratio the same - if I dropped the drag from 135 to 120 what is the effect..... I assume the pace would drop ?<br /><br />If that was the case then could I not keep upping the drag until the ratio started declining and at this stage any further increase would have a negative impact on pace, but up to that point I am going to keep going faster and faster???<br /><br />Please keep in mind I am only talking about going faster for about 6:20 - 6:30 minutes and not for a 10k or HM or whatever.<br /><br />George

[[old] John Rupp]

Between drag factors of 220 and 100, the stroke rating doesn't change that much with the exception of a slight difference at top sprint speed.<br /><br />This is because with a lower drag factor, you drive through faster but also there is a greater difference in change of momentum (and thus time) at the ends of each stroke.<br /><br />This evens out the ratings so they are about the same either way.

[[old] george nz]

John i have a blank spot on this obviously If you are rating 20 (3 sec stroke) and say the drive is 1 sec and the recovery 2 and you change the df from 140 down to 120.<br /><br />The fly wheel at 120 will slow less, does that not mean that given the way the C2 calculates power hence pace that the pace will be slower.<br /><br />I realise I am not being to clear in my query so will try another question.<br /><br />If the drive take 1 second will the rpm of the fan be the same at the end of the drive regardless of the DF - therefore the only thing changing is how much it slows down, therfore how much force you have to apply to get it to this theoretical RPM. On a higher DF are you not rewarded for having applied more force by a faster pace. .... h*** does that make sense <br /><br />George

[[old] PaulS]

<!--QuoteBegin-george nz+Dec 1 2005, 01:44 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(george nz @ Dec 1 2005, 01:44 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->John i have a blank spot on this obviously    If you are rating 20 (3 sec stroke) and say the drive is 1 sec and the recovery 2 and you change the df from 140 down to 120.<br /><br />The fly wheel at 120 will slow less, does that not mean that given the way the C2 calculates power hence pace that the pace will be slower.<br /><br />I realise I am not being to clear in my query so will try another question.<br /><br />If the drive take 1 second will the rpm of the fan be the same at the end of the drive regardless of the DF - therefore the only thing changing is how much it slows down, therfore how much force you have to apply to get it to this theoretical RPM.  On a higher DF are you not rewarded for having applied more force by a faster pace. .... h*** does that make sense  <br /><br />George <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />George,<br /><br />I was working on your other question, but this one is far more clear. <br /><br />Once the DF has been calculated it will remain relatively constant unless the damper is changed. <br />Each rev of the flywheel could be given a value in "meters" (or fractions of meters in reality) that is directly related to the DF.<br /><br />For a given stroke length(cm) and DF there will be two components to the distance travelled (Virtual Boat) during that stroke.<br />1) Distance on the drive<br />2) Distance on the recovery<br /><br />If you were to keep stroke length, rate, and ratio the same and reduced the DF the Pace be slower.<br /><br />Let's play with some variables: (The same ones you picked)<br /><br />Rate = 20<br />Ratio = 1:2<br />Drive time = 1 Sec<br />Drive Length = 150cm<br /><br />To spend 1 second on the Drive the flywheel would be at an average of 1012RPM during the drive. (16.87 revolutions for 150cm)<br /><br />This 16.87 revolutions per drive is going to be the same if drive length is maintained.<br />By increasing the DF you will cover more distance (virtual Boat - VB) on the Drive, which would take more power, and make the pace faster.<br />This is why there is "no free lunch" to be had through the manipulation of DF.<br /><br />Since we can only put power into the system on the Drive, it's not hard to see how for a given ratio the distance covered on the recovery will be directly proportional to the distance covered on the Drive, regardless of DF.<br /><br />I think that you have a pretty good idea of what is happening and this should be enough additional information.<br /><br />Now here is where the difference between Erging and Rowing would come into play. The Ratio has a very profound effect on how a boat would be moving (and energy requirements), but the Erg really doesn't care a bit and the only dependency is the athletes physiology.<br /><br />You can probably recall the "area under the curve" discussions that would make the ideal stroke a rectangular shape, getting the most area under the curve with the least amplitude. This would be more easily accomplished with a High DF and a low ratio. The conundrum is that to be able to do that really well, training on low DF to increase quickness is essential.<br /><br />Sorry, probably too long already, this sure is easier to answer in person, with an Erg handy for demonstration.

[[old] george nz]

Tks Paul yes that makes sense. In my own way I had figured out that if I could maintain my drive length and speed while increasing the drag I would be going quicker. <br /><br />The next component to the equation was 'how long I could sustain that effort for'. I needed to train myself to be able to sustain that effort for the duration of racing a 2k on an erg (no boat issues and momentum need apply).<br /><br />So 2k time = rate x DF (where drive length and ratio stay the same) .... then it is a simple matter of finding a DF I can cope with given my 'strength' and a rate I can maintain for the time it takes to complete 2000m <br /><br />George<br /><br />ps I accept that this DF will most likely not be suitable for 10k but it only has to last somewhere under 6:30 and hopefully a fair bit under

[[old] John Rupp]

<!--QuoteBegin-george nz+Dec 1 2005, 01:44 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(george nz @ Dec 1 2005, 01:44 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you are rating 20 (3 sec stroke) ... and you change the df from 140 down to 120.<br /><br />The fly wheel at 120 will slow less, does that not mean that given the way the C2 calculates power hence pace that the pace will be slower. </td></tr></table><br /><br />No, because the drive is faster.<br /><br /><!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->On a higher DF are you not rewarded for having applied more force by a faster pace. </td></tr></table><br /><br />You would be IF the drive speed was the same, which it isn't. If it was the same then the lighter DF would still be faster, so the heavier DF is slower -- i.e. still "not" the same drive speed.<br /><br />One is lighter but faster, the other heavier but slower. <br /><br />Thus the "power" works out the same.<br /><br />

[[old] george nz]

<!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Dec 2 2005, 12:55 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Dec 2 2005, 12:55 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-george nz+Dec 1 2005, 01:44 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(george nz @ Dec 1 2005, 01:44 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you are rating 20 (3 sec stroke) ... and you change the df from 140 down to 120.<br /><br />The fly wheel at 120 will slow less, does that not mean that given the way the C2 calculates power hence pace that the pace will be slower. </td></tr></table><br /><br />No, because the drive is faster. </td></tr></table><br /><br />John if the drive time and length are the same then the drive speed is the same irrespective of the DF. The only thing that changes is how much the fan slows on the recovery.<br /><br />The more it slows the greater the difference between max fan speed and min fan speed and as this increases then you have to apply more force in the drive to keep drive time the same. This then is 'shown' as a faster pace?<br /><br /><br /><!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You would be IF the drive speed was the same, which it isn't. </td></tr></table> How do you know my drive speed is not the same at 130 as 120, both well within my physical capacity.<br /><br />George

[[old] Alissa]

George, <br /><br />Along the same lines (the trend that is reduced DF), I've just had a look at the new New Zealand Indoor Rowing Association web site (based on your kindness in providing a link to it on the <a href='http://www.concept2.co.uk/forum/viewtop ... ht=nzir%2A' target='_blank'>UK forum</a>). I enjoyed looking around (thanks for the link), and spotted this under <a href='http://www.nzira.org/tips.shtml' target='_blank'>"Hot Tips for Experts"</a> which is a discussion suggesting that different damper settings are appropriate for different distances. Higher settings w/ shorter distances and lower settings for longer ones.<br /><br />Similar discussions have been seen on this forum from Xeno <a href='http://concept2.ipbhost.com/index.php?a ... st&p=28985' target='_blank'>here</a> and from a lively group which veered into a damper setting/drag discussion in a separate thread beginning <a href='http://concept2.ipbhost.com/index.php?s ... amper&st=6#' target='_blank'>here</a>.<br /><br />I was wondering if you knew who wrote/provided the tip on the NZIRA site?<br /><br />Kind regards,<br /><br />Alissa