C2ctc

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[old] Mark Keating
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Joined: March 18th, 2006, 10:32 pm

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Post by [old] Mark Keating » January 4th, 2006, 11:55 am

I'm too lazy to surf over to the C2 UK site to take part in the C2 Cross Team Challenge thread. <br /><br />I've never done a 30' R20 (lower back) test before - any suggestions as to how to determine an appropriate target pace?<br /><br />Mark<br /><br />P.S. Here is the link to the <a href='http://www.c2ctc.com/' target='_blank'>challenge</a> if you haven't seen it yet.

[old] dadams
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Post by [old] dadams » January 4th, 2006, 12:15 pm

<!--QuoteBegin-Mark Keating+Jan 4 2006, 10:55 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Mark Keating @ Jan 4 2006, 10:55 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm too lazy to surf over to the C2 UK site to take part in the C2 Cross Team Challenge thread. <br /><br />I've never done a 30' R20 (lower back) test before - any suggestions as to how to determine an appropriate target pace?<br /><br />Mark<br /><br />P.S.  Here is the link to the <a href='http://www.c2ctc.com/' target='_blank'>challenge</a> if you haven't seen it yet. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Mark,<br />Try starting out at your 6k pace and see how that goes. You can make adjustments from there.<br /><br />Dwayne

[old] PaulS
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Joined: March 18th, 2006, 10:32 pm

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Post by [old] PaulS » January 4th, 2006, 12:29 pm

<!--QuoteBegin-dadams+Jan 4 2006, 08:15 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(dadams @ Jan 4 2006, 08:15 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Mark Keating+Jan 4 2006, 10:55 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Mark Keating @ Jan 4 2006, 10:55 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm too lazy to surf over to the C2 UK site to take part in the C2 Cross Team Challenge thread. <br /><br />I've never done a 30' R20 (lower back) test before - any suggestions as to how to determine an appropriate target pace?<br /><br />Mark<br /><br />P.S.  Here is the link to the <a href='http://www.c2ctc.com/' target='_blank'>challenge</a> if you haven't seen it yet. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Mark,<br />Try starting out at your 6k pace and see how that goes. You can make adjustments from there.<br /><br />Dwayne <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />I find this suggestion fascinating. Is one really able to go at their 6k PB pace for a longer time if only they reduce the Stroke rate? <br /><br />I think the number thrown out for the 30' R20 test is 70% of 2k watts.<br /><br />From Marks signature line his 6k Pace is 80% of his 2k Power, and that falls into the range of expected differences.<br /><br />70% of 2k would be 183.4 watts or a 2:04 pace in Marks case.<br /><br />$0.02 <br />

[old] dadams
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Post by [old] dadams » January 4th, 2006, 12:56 pm

<!--QuoteBegin-PaulS+Jan 4 2006, 11:29 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Jan 4 2006, 11:29 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I find this suggestion fascinating.  Is one really able to go at their 6k PB pace for a longer time if only they reduce the Stroke rate?   <br /><br />I think the number thrown out for the 30' R20 test is 70% of 2k watts.<br /><br />From Marks signature line his 6k Pace is 80% of his 2k Power, and that falls into the range of expected differences.<br /><br />70% of 2k would be 183.4 watts or a 2:04 pace in Marks case.<br /><br />$0.02   <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Easy there cowboy. Nobody said anything about 6k <b>PB</b> pace. <br /><br />You're not starting to make things up like your buddy JR, are you?

[old] PaulS
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Joined: March 18th, 2006, 10:32 pm

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Post by [old] PaulS » January 4th, 2006, 1:12 pm

<!--QuoteBegin-dadams+Jan 4 2006, 08:56 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(dadams @ Jan 4 2006, 08:56 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-PaulS+Jan 4 2006, 11:29 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Jan 4 2006, 11:29 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I find this suggestion fascinating.  Is one really able to go at their 6k PB pace for a longer time if only they reduce the Stroke rate?   <br /><br />I think the number thrown out for the 30' R20 test is 70% of 2k watts.<br /><br />From Marks signature line his 6k Pace is 80% of his 2k Power, and that falls into the range of expected differences.<br /><br />70% of 2k would be 183.4 watts or a 2:04 pace in Marks case.<br /><br />$0.02   <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Easy there cowboy. Nobody said anything about 6k <b>PB</b> pace. <br /><br />You're not starting to make things up like to buddy JR, are you? <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />That hurts Dwayne. <br /><br />What exactly does "your 6k pace" mean? Is it differently interpretted than "your 2k pace"? Which I've always taken as referencing a persons current PB pace, as opposed to saying "your 6k recovery pace".<br /><br />Perhaps I'm completely off base in the use of terms like "your 6k pace", please feel free to explain your cryptic use of the phrase.<br />

[old] dadams
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Post by [old] dadams » January 4th, 2006, 1:16 pm

<!--QuoteBegin-PaulS+Jan 4 2006, 12:12 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Jan 4 2006, 12:12 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->That hurts Dwayne.  <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Sorry 'bout that Paul. All in good fun.<br /><br /><!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What exactly does "your 6k pace" mean?  Is it differently interpretted than "your 2k pace"?  Which I've always taken as referencing a persons current PB pace, as opposed to saying "your 6k recovery pace".<br /><br />Perhaps I'm completely off base in the use of terms like "your 6k pace", please feel free to explain your cryptic use of the phrase. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />You are right on this. I was being cryptic in my verbage (spelling?). <br /><br />What I meant was a comfortable 6k pace. Then make adjustments from there. Better?

[old] mpukita

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Post by [old] mpukita » January 4th, 2006, 1:25 pm

Paul / Dwayne:<br /><br />How about making it easy for a dense (and slow) guy like me?<br /><br />What differential should one expect for 30' @ 20SPM vs. one's 30' best distance unrestricted?<br /><br /> <br /><br />PS/NB - Dwayne, that shot at Paul was borderline fightin' words!

[old] PaulS
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Post by [old] PaulS » January 4th, 2006, 2:38 pm

<!--QuoteBegin-mpukita+Jan 4 2006, 09:25 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(mpukita @ Jan 4 2006, 09:25 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What differential should one expect for 30' @ 20SPM vs. one's 30' best distance unrestricted?<br /> <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />What, you don't like the 70% of 2k watts? <br /><br />Comparing an "unrestricted" effort to a restricted potential is a bit strange, IMO, in fact it is equally strange for the 2k Vs 30' R20 comparison for that exact reason, but there is also a lot of data that was crunched to come up with the correlation in the first place. Correlation does not imply causation however.

[old] Citroen
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Post by [old] Citroen » January 4th, 2006, 2:40 pm

<!--QuoteBegin-dadams+Jan 4 2006, 04:56 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(dadams @ Jan 4 2006, 04:56 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-PaulS+Jan 4 2006, 11:29 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Jan 4 2006, 11:29 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I find this suggestion fascinating.  Is one really able to go at their 6k PB pace for a longer time if only they reduce the Stroke rate?  <br /><br />I think the number thrown out for the 30' R20 test is 70% of 2k watts.<br /><br />From Marks signature line his 6k Pace is 80% of his 2k Power, and that falls into the range of expected differences.<br /><br />70% of 2k would be 183.4 watts or a 2:04 pace in Marks case.<br /><br />$0.02  <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Easy there cowboy. Nobody said anything about 6k <b>PB</b> pace. <br /><br />You're not starting to make things up like your buddy JR, are you? <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Nope, Paul is recommending exactly what I did for the 30'R20.<br /><br />I rowed 7633m, yesterday. My 2K the day before was 6:59.0 (1:44.8). <br />70% of 1:44.8 for 30' is very close to 7633m.<br />

[old] PaulS
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Post by [old] PaulS » January 4th, 2006, 3:11 pm

<!--QuoteBegin-Citroen+Jan 4 2006, 10:40 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Citroen @ Jan 4 2006, 10:40 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I rowed 7633m, yesterday. My 2K the day before was 6:59.0 (1:44.8). <br />70% of 1:44.8 for 30' is very close to 7633m. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Could you describe your feelings regarding both of those efforts?<br />Equally fatigued at the end?<br />Percieved Effort?<br />etc...<br /><br />Generally in the final 100m of a 2k "Maximal Effort" it becomes evident that current pace is going to drop below Avg Pace if even an extra stroke or two is required. Do people opperate close to that same edge for 30 minutes? They seem to be very different exercises IMO.

[old] Citroen
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Post by [old] Citroen » January 4th, 2006, 3:27 pm

<!--QuoteBegin-PaulS+Jan 4 2006, 07:11 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Jan 4 2006, 07:11 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Citroen+Jan 4 2006, 10:40 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Citroen @ Jan 4 2006, 10:40 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I rowed 7633m, yesterday. My 2K the day before was 6:59.0 (1:44.8). <br />70% of 1:44.8 for 30' is very close to 7633m. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Could you describe your feelings regarding both of those efforts?<br />Equally fatigued at the end?<br />Percieved Effort?<br />etc...<br /><br />Generally in the final 100m of a 2k "Maximal Effort" it becomes evident that current pace is going to drop below Avg Pace if even an extra stroke or two is required. Do people opperate close to that same edge for 30 minutes? They seem to be very different exercises IMO. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />There's some details of warm-up, cool down and the splits, stroke rate and HR in my weblog. I don't do the percieved effort stuff to a great deal, but at the end of the 2K it felt much worse than the 2K warm-up, 30'R20, 2K cool down. The bike ride home was harder, more lactic after the 20' warm-up, 2K, 5K cool down. <br /><br />The spi was 10.7 for the 30' but only 8.7 for the 2K. <br /><br />Both times I've done this calculation on 2K vs 30'R20 (rowed close together) the maths has come out right.<br />

[old] TomR/the elder
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Post by [old] TomR/the elder » January 4th, 2006, 3:48 pm

I've done this 30' r20 (at approx 70% of 2k watts) a couple of times, but not recently. It doesn't take one to the brink of collapse, like a 2k, but it's a tough piece of work, and the kind of effort that can cause body parts to slip their sprockets. That is, cause strains if you don't warm up properly or go out too hard. In my case, my HR ended up at about 95% of max, and I felt altogether used up at the end. <br /><br />Tom

[old] dadams
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Post by [old] dadams » January 4th, 2006, 3:51 pm

I think the above comments pretty much answer your question Mark. The majority are in the opinion of a 70% of 2k pace.

[old] PaulS
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Post by [old] PaulS » January 4th, 2006, 3:54 pm

<!--QuoteBegin-Citroen+Jan 4 2006, 11:27 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Citroen @ Jan 4 2006, 11:27 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-PaulS+Jan 4 2006, 07:11 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Jan 4 2006, 07:11 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Citroen+Jan 4 2006, 10:40 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Citroen @ Jan 4 2006, 10:40 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I rowed 7633m, yesterday. My 2K the day before was 6:59.0 (1:44.8). <br />70% of 1:44.8 for 30' is very close to 7633m. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Could you describe your feelings regarding both of those efforts?<br />Equally fatigued at the end?<br />Percieved Effort?<br />etc...<br /><br />Generally in the final 100m of a 2k "Maximal Effort" it becomes evident that current pace is going to drop below Avg Pace if even an extra stroke or two is required. Do people opperate close to that same edge for 30 minutes? They seem to be very different exercises IMO. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />There's some details of warm-up, cool down and the splits, stroke rate and HR in my weblog. I don't do the percieved effort stuff to a great deal, but at the end of the 2K it felt much worse than the 2K warm-up, 30'R20, 2K cool down. The bike ride home was harder, more lactic after the 20' warm-up, 2K, 5K cool down. <br /><br />The spi was 10.7 for the 30' but only 8.7 for the 2K. <br /><br />Both times I've done this calculation on 2K vs 30'R20 (rowed close together) the maths has come out right. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Let's try it this way then.<br /><br />You have just finished the 2k, you are approached and offered something of great value to you, could you repeat the performance, to begin in the next 10 minutes?<br /><br />How about the 30'R20 piece?<br /><br />Your note of the SPI difference is something that Ranger should pay attention to.

[old] TomR/the elder
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Post by [old] TomR/the elder » January 4th, 2006, 3:55 pm

Mark--<br /><br />I saw on the Wolverine thread that your back is tightening up.<br /><br />My advice to you is avoid this 30'r20 workout if you've got any kind of back issues. <br /><br />And remember, allowing for adequate recovery is an essential part of training.<br /><br />Tom

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