Testing At Altitude In Denver Or Elsewhere

[[old] Xeno]

Between 1991-1992-1993 we trained in St.Moritz, Switzerland.<br /><br />I trained at 1600 meters, roughly 4800 feet in preparation for the world championship. The goal was to increase red blood cells by training at altitude for three weeks.<br /><br />When at altitude and a 2000 meter piece on the rowing machine is perfromed, rowers have to open the air intake in order to have a similar resistance per stroke as at lower altitude. This is due to the fact that air is thinner and the wheel spins with less air resistance at higher altitude.<br /><br />The Concept2 and Rowperfect performance monitor calculate the difference between highest and lowest speed of the flywheel. This is why the lack of air pressure and oxgyene can be "calibrated" by adjusting the air intake.<br /><br />Humans face their biological air intake limitiations at altitude and anybody will perform less in altitude because of the lack of oxygene in the air. <br /><br />We did lactate tests and it showed that we needed to train 20 heart beats below our target heart rate to stay at the aerobic intentisty while rowing.<br /><br /><br />Now the question is whether the DENVER 2K qualification time for Boston is adjusted right or not.<br /><br />Anybody know what the qualification time is at a mile high?<br /><br />Read you later,<br />XENO

[[old] PaulS]

I'm quite sure you are correct, but the discussion may get interesting if the usual suspect shows up. <br /><br /><a href='http://www.concept2.com/05/training/com ... ltimes.asp' target='_blank'>CRASH-B Qualifying times - including the Altitude adjusted times.</a><br /><br />

[[old] Xeno]

<!--QuoteBegin-PaulS+Oct 31 2005, 03:35 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Oct 31 2005, 03:35 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm quite sure you are correct, but the discussion may get interesting if the usual suspect shows up.   <br /><br /><a href='http://www.concept2.com/05/training/com ... ltimes.asp' target='_blank'>CRASH-B Qualifying times - including the Altitude adjusted times.</a> <br /> </td></tr></table><br />Hi Paul,<br />I am feeling playful.<br />I hope you are having a great fall!<br />XENO

[[old] dennish]

No qualifying times for altitiude have been published. I always shoot for the sealevel time, and this is the first time I have gotten to it. I rowed this peice at around 7700 feet, I live in the mountains west of Denver. In the Mile High Sprints erg races (at about 5800 ft.) to qualify for Boston I can usually count on lowering my time by 10-12 seconds at Boston. The best improvement was around 16 and the worst was around 6 (but I had bronchitis so that sort of scews the average a bit). At longer distances I don't have quite as much to compare but for an hour I was 16382 at sealevel and can't make 16k here. Sprints, same thing, just not quite so noticable, 500 at sealevel 1:32.2 and here my best recently is 1:34+. Mike Caviston and Graham Watt have both come here and erged, both here at 7700ft and we also went up to Summit County (Breckenridge, Arapahoe, Cooper Mountain, Vail) and 9000+ft. and erged a bit. Both guys felt the differnece at altitude was tough. dennis

[[old] raymond botha]

Hi guy's<br /><br />I stay in Johannesburg South Africa which is approx 2000m above sea level and I can say that when I go to the coast for 3 weeks I can feel a huge difference in training power, and my fitness just gets better as I train there. I am not a scientist or a mathemetitian, but I can say from a subjective point of view its easier to train hard @ sea level. I know I have more red blood cells when arriving there , but that advantage won't last 3 weeks. Interestingly when I go back to altitude I find it difficlt and can never seem to match the intensity I enjoyed @ sea level. I also notice the onset of lactic acid arrives sooner @ altitude. Its an intersting feeling going between the altitudes.<br />Slightly off the topic you notice how much stronger you car feels @ the coast compared to altitude. The car magazines say the power difference is 18% but the torque differnce is DOUBLE that. I think that illustrates how my body feels.<br /><br />Ray

[[old] kjgress]

Hey: I think I'll jump into this topic 'cause I am always interested in this. I am lower than Dennis but higher than Denver; just at 6,000 ft. I haven't had the chance to row at sea level this year since Boston, but last year rowed a handful of times at sea level; St. Louis and New York City. I can always count on rowing seasonal PB's in practice when I go from altitude to sea level and the rowing seems much more effortless to achieve the splits.<br /><br /> Like Dennis, I am aiming to make the sea level qualification for Boston this year. I think I may make it as I am 2.7 sec off the sea level time right now. Last year was my first year of competition since 1989 and the first at the 2k distance (before it was 2.5K). I was very happy with my Mile HI time of 7:37 but didn't have anything to compare it to. I had a difficult time estimating what to do at sea level and was disappointed with my Boston time of 7:28.3; a difference of 8+ seconds and within Dennis' parameters, but only about half of the altitude adjustment. Partly due to lack of racing experience, partly due to lack of experience transitioning between altitude and sea level, I had way too much left at the end of the race and really think I could've dropped about a second/split. I went into the warm up room about an hour afterward and pulled a PB 5k (although that could also have been due to the altitude; whatever).<br /><br />My feeling is that I can safely give myself 3 seconds/split in a 2k race; physically I think I may be able to go 4, but mentally I am afraid of it. To see a split that is faster than my PB 1k time and hold it for 2K is hard for me (I am not a sprinter; my 8x500 avg is only .5 second less than my 2K splits and my weakest times are my .5K and 1K; the longer I go the better I do).<br /><br />I know that I have more access to oxygen at sea level and also that my muscles are no stronger at sea level than they are at altitude. Some of the factors I am unsure about are these (since I am unfamiliar with how energy systems work in the body). Does training at altitude mean that my body is more efficient at using the oxygen it receives, therefore allowing a longer period of rowing without by-product buildup when rowing at sea level? I tend to row at lower spm. Should I keep the spm the same at sea level and have more power longer or should I row with lighter pressure and higher spm knowing I won't oxygen deplete aerobically like I can at higher spm at altitude? <br /><br />Questions, questions. Does anyone have any ideas?

[[old] ancho]

<!--QuoteBegin-raymond botha+Nov 4 2005, 10:04 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(raymond botha @ Nov 4 2005, 10:04 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->...<br />Slightly off the topic you notice how much stronger you car feels @ the coast compared to altitude. The car magazines say the power difference is 18% but the torque differnce is DOUBLE that. I think that illustrates how my body feels.<br /><br />Ray <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />I know that feeling very well from biking (motorbiking and mountainbiking on the Pyrynees ),

[[old] kjgress]

I'll throw this in from elsewhere on the forum:<br /><br /><!--QuoteBegin-rspenger+Oct 28 2005, 08:12 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(rspenger @ Oct 28 2005, 08:12 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-dennish+Oct 28 2005, 04:48 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(dennish @ Oct 28 2005, 04:48 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Scheduled attempt for tomorrow got derailed by cycling clinic and job. Had to get up early to get this in this morning. In the garage, about 43 degrees when I started. Altitude is just a touch over 7700ft. in the mountains west of Denver. <br />2.0 to 1.5 ~ 1:43.0<br />1.5 to 1.0 ~ 1:43.6<br />1.0 to .5   ~ 1:42.8<br />.5 to fin    ~ 1:41.9<br /><br />total time 6:51.2 and a continuing exertion hack. Ah yes, we love the erg. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Dennis,<br /><br />Have you seen the following, taken from an article entitled "The Physics of Ergometers?"<br /><br />Quote: This means that, for a given lung-volume and breathing rate, the amount of Oxygen taken into the bloodstream would also decrease by 1% for every 70m. If oxygen uptake through the lungs is the limiting factor in aerobic power output, then you would expect your erg power scores to fall off at the same rate (or split times to increase by 1% for every 210 m due to the cube relationship between power and speed, Eq. 4.5). E.g., in Denver (altitude 1500m), the air pressure is only 80% of the sea level value, so anyone moving up from sea level and trying a long-distance erg would probably find their power reduced by 20% (or times increased by approximately 7%). End of quote.<br /><br />Of course, you are at a considerably higher altitude than Denver, so it would be more than 20% difference. At 4000 ft, I am at only 3/4 of the Denver altitude, but I find that I can improve in the 2k by over 30 seconds by going to sea level. Incidentally, the previous paragraph in that article points out that the response of the monitors of the Concept2 ergometers compensates for the changes in resistance of the ergometers due to differences in air densities, contrary to some statements that have been made in this forum.<br /><br />regards,<br /><br />Bob S. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br /><br />I think that the older one is the more the altitude affects performance. If older rowers tend to row "lighter" and with higher spm and younger rowers with more power (this is just a rambling generalization) maybe one could loosely conclude that going from altitude to sea level favors more aerobic rowers over those that row with more power/stroke. I personally know that I couldn't improve 30 seconds from Denver to Boston (that would mean a 7:02 2K; now wouldn't that be nice!

[[old] John Rupp]

Keep talking and you might get down to a 5:59.

[[old] PaulS]

<!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Nov 4 2005, 09:02 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Nov 4 2005, 09:02 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Keep talking and you might get down to a 5:59.  <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Back on Track big guy! What are you talking about? (dare I ask?)

[[old] kjgress]

Paul: I think I have a good idea what he means. It isn't complimentary and has no bearing on the discussion at hand. Best to just ignore it. A reply may just de-rail this topic.

[[old] John Rupp]

Well since we're giving ourselves free seconds on this thread we may as well make it worth while so why stop at just 12 or 20 of them?<br /><br />Let's make it a minute or two!

[[old] dennish]

Karen, I think you are pretty danged close to go for a split time 3 seconds faster at sealevel. I have found that that is reasonable and managable territory. I think I have told this another place but all my times from 500 up to hour have been significantly faster at sealevel. Whether or not I'm a power/younger rower or aerobic/older rower would probably best be answered by Paul S. I suspect his answer would be "he's a difficult old fart who can't read numbers. Mulish, stubborn and given to regretable remarks about barnyard animals." It is quite a good feeling knowing that you can push a bit harder at sealevel, now if I could just iron out that technique issue. d

[[old] John Rupp]

Karen,<br /><br />I think you can do a 5:59 at sea level. <br /><br />Hey the slower you go at altitude the faster you can go at sea level!<br /><br />Try this it works! <br /><br />Dennis will back me up on this!

[[old] kjgress]

<!--QuoteBegin-dennish+Nov 4 2005, 08:50 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(dennish @ Nov 4 2005, 08:50 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Karen, I think you are pretty danged close to go for a split time 3 seconds faster at sealevel. I have found that that is reasonable and managable territory. I think I have told this another place but all my times from 500 up to hour have been significantly faster at sealevel. Whether or not I'm a power/younger rower or aerobic/older rower would probably best be answered by Paul S. I suspect his answer would be "he's a difficult old fart who can't read numbers. Mulish, stubborn and given to regretable remarks about barnyard animals." It is quite a good feeling knowing that you can push a bit harder at sealevel, now if I could just iron out that technique issue.  d <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br /><br />Thanks Dennis!