For True Lightweights ...

[[old] GeorgeD]

Do you think Heavyweights who 'strip' down to race as Lightweights have an advantage - (similar to boxers) - over true Lightweights<br /><br />In my opinion I think they would.<br /><br />George<br /><br />ps Not something I will ever have to worry about

[[old] Rocket Roy]

I agree and the practice should be stopped <br /><br />Seriously I have heard about some european rowers who are naturally 83kilos at their perfect weight stipping it all down to 75 kilos, or 182.6 lbs to 165lbs.<br /><br />As for me calling the kettle black, at 5'.10" my natural weight should be 72.7 kilos so I'm just getting rid of surplus fat.

[[old] GeorgeD]

Roy I am not really saying whether its right or wrong as it is just a fact of life so people have to deal with it.<br /><br />I would see it as a result of those who are at the low end of the HW division looking to optimise thier chances and that is hard to argue with<br /><br />George<br /><br />ps As a true lightweight tho I guess I would have a problem with someone who made lightweight 'under duress' for a competition (for a short period, maybe only on race day) and then set a record that was held up as some sort of 'yardstick' when really they would have no shot at anything if they raced at their natural weight.

[[old] Xavier]

<!--QuoteBegin-Rocket Roy+Feb 2 2005, 06:04 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Rocket Roy @ Feb 2 2005, 06:04 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Seriously I have heard about some european rowers who are naturally 83kilos at their perfect weight stipping it all down to 75 kilos, or 182.6 lbs to 165lbs.<br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Roy, err ... no comment. <br /><br />I think that people who are properly borderline lightweight might have a bit of an advantage. But 75kg is 75kg, and any performance at that weight should be recognised, whether it's your natural weight or not.<br /><br />Xav

[[old] Steve_R]

<!--QuoteBegin-GeorgeD+Feb 2 2005, 12:12 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(GeorgeD @ Feb 2 2005, 12:12 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Do you think Heavyweights who 'strip' down to race as Lightweights have an advantage <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><!--QuoteBegin-Rocket Roy+Feb 2 2005, 01:04 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Rocket Roy @ Feb 2 2005, 01:04 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Seriously I have heard about some european rowers who are naturally 83kilos at their perfect weight stipping it all down to 75 kilos, or 182.6 lbs to 165lbs. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />I think the answer comes down to one thing: how much muscle does each competitor have? Dehydration can make a big difference in time, I have heard as much as 5% slower when you are slightly dehydrated. Assuming that you can replace the water weight lost after weigh in, that shouldn’t be a factor. <br /><br />There are more variables than I address here but here is my guess at the following comparisons to a 5ft 10in, medium frame, 165lb competitor with 15% body fat. For this exercise, I have assumed that everyone’s technique is the same and they are equally efficient. I kept everyone the same height since that would just open up a whole different conversation that is already being discussed elsewhere.<br /><br />True lightweights:<br />5ft 10in, large frame, 165lb, 15% body fat – slower, less muscle mass<br />5ft 10in, small frame, 165lb, 15% body fat – faster, smaller frame at the same lean weight, can have more muscle. (having a small frame, this is my goal)<br />5ft 10in, medium frame, 165lb, 25% body fat - slower<br /><br />“stripped” lightweights:<br />5ft 10in, medium frame, 165lb, 15% body fat that dieted from 180lb – equal<br />5ft 10in, medium frame, 165lb, 10% body fat that dieted from 180lb – faster<br /><br />I don’t think there is much advantage to training at a heavier weight if dieting means that you will lose muscle. I also think that someone who consistently trains at their racing weight will have an advantage that they don’t have to get used to a different body for the race. Of course, this is all subject to the day.<br /><br />After all of this theoretical analysis, one thing is left, the faster competitor did better.<br /><br />Steve

[[old] PaulS]

If they actually row the piece at the weight required it probably is not much advantage and may well be a disadvantage. I'm not quite sure why there is not a re-weigh as soon as they can scrape themselves off the floor and towel off in the case of establishing a new record. At least that would out the dehydrate/rehydrate group, but I think official weigh-ins being brought closer to race time are going to help with that too.<br /><br />Anyway George, a strippling such as yourself would probably not be at much of an advantage by sweating down to lwt.

[[old] Physicist]

Paul,<br /><br />I believe the reason that the weigh-in is a couple of hours before the race, not after, is for the very reason you say. It is dangerous to race dehydrated, which is what would happen if the weigh-in were directly before or after the race.<br /><br />As far as I know, the weigh-in for all weight-class sports is deliberately put a reasonable time before the event in order to give competitors a chance to rehydrate.<br /><br />If I were changing the lightweight category, I'd make it a height restriction rather than a weight restriction. Though you'd have issues with people not standing up straight - not sure how you'd resolve that...

[[old] PaulS]

<!--QuoteBegin-Physicist+Feb 2 2005, 06:14 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Physicist @ Feb 2 2005, 06:14 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Paul,<br /><br />I believe the reason that the weigh-in is a couple of hours before the race, not after, is for the very reason you say.  It is dangerous to race dehydrated, which is what would happen if the weigh-in were directly before or after the race.<br /><br />As far as I know, the weigh-in for all weight-class sports is deliberately put a reasonable time before the event in order to give competitors a chance to rehydrate.<br /><br />If I were changing the lightweight category, I'd make it a height restriction rather than a weight restriction.  Though you'd have issues with people not standing up straight - not sure how you'd resolve that... <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />So what you are saying is that the current practice encourages this unhealthy behavior, and I agree, so the practice should be changed to discourage that unhealthy behavior. I'd be willing to make the weigh in just after the even to allow for the odd pound to be shed during the race. Surely any "true lwt" would be close enough to have no problem with that, otherwise they are putting themselves at risk and that can't be good for any sport. Is it any different than the banned substance rules? Which apparently exist for the safety of the athletes, afterall, we just want to see a great performance, who cares if the athlete gets cancer or dies suddenly. (Oops, maybe a bit too cynical.) If it were done under some notion of "fairness of competition", well that would fall into the category of "grow up, life ain't fair!".

[[old] Steve_R]

<!--QuoteBegin-PaulS+Feb 2 2005, 09:47 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Feb 2 2005, 09:47 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->so the practice should be changed to discourage that unhealthy behavior.  I'd be willing to make the weigh in just after the even to allow for the odd pound to be shed during the race.  Surely any "true lwt" would be close enough to have no problem with that, otherwise they are putting themselves at risk and that can't be good for any sport. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />I agree, I would be happy to weigh in after.<br /><br />Steve

[[old] FrancoisA]

<!--QuoteBegin-PaulS+Feb 2 2005, 02:47 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Feb 2 2005, 02:47 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So what you are saying is that the current practice encourages this unhealthy behavior, and I agree, so the practice should be changed to discourage that unhealthy behavior.  I'd be willing to make the weigh in just after the even to allow for the odd pound to be shed during the race.  Surely any "true lwt" would be close enough to have no problem with that,... </td></tr></table><br />I wholeheartedly agree with Paul!<br />By the way, rowing is quite unique among the endurance sports to have weight categories; there is none in swimming, biking, running, and all the events in track and field.

[[old] TPMcT]

They changed the weigh-in rule for rowing at about the same time they changed it for wrestling. Ten or fifteenyears ago, several high school and college wrestlers died after sweating themselves to make weight. The intent was to discourage extreme weight loss.<br /><br />Oh so long ago now, we were allowed to weigh in at any time after 5 p.m. the day before the race. And there was no further weigh-in for multi-day regattas. So there was ample opprtunity to sweat it off for the weigh-in and gain it back gain it back for the race. (Not that I, at 6'2" and a strapping 157 lbs., had anything to worry about.)<br /><br />Even with the old rule, you still had to be within a few pounds of your assigned weight. The new rule, though, puts an even higher price on dehydration before a race.<br /><br />Tim McTighe<br />

[[old] FrancoisA]

<!--QuoteBegin-Physicist+Feb 2 2005, 02:14 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Physicist @ Feb 2 2005, 02:14 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It is dangerous to race dehydrated, which is what would happen if the weigh-in were directly before or after the race.<br /> </td></tr></table><br />If some people are stupid enough to race dehydrated to make it to a lwt category, then tough luck for them; the are losers in my book anyway!

[[old] Physicist]

But people WILL dehydrate to make lwt if a lwt category exists. That's inevitable. You don't want to put people in a situation where they have to weigh up (no pun intended) their safety against their chances of winning. Because the nature of competition is such that they will push it further and further, and then too far. So you remove the conflict by making it less dangerous to dehydrate, as there is time to rehydrate.<br /><br />I don't think the argument that it's "tough luck on people stupid enough" to dehydrate really holds. The main reason we ban steroids and other drugs is because if you don't ban them completely, people will keep increasing the amount they take to improve performance until it becomes dangerous. It's to protect the athletes. The weigh-in seems entirely analogous to me,

[[old] PaulS]

<!--QuoteBegin-Physicist+Feb 2 2005, 07:45 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Physicist @ Feb 2 2005, 07:45 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But people WILL dehydrate to make lwt if a lwt category exists.  That's inevitable.  You don't want to put people in a situation where they have to weigh up (no pun intended) their safety against their chances of winning.  Because the nature of competition is such that they will push it further and further, and then too far.  So you remove the conflict by making it less dangerous to dehydrate, as there is time to rehydrate.<br /><br />I don't think the argument that it's "tough luck on people stupid enough" to dehydrate really holds.  The main reason we ban steroids and other drugs is because if you don't ban them completely, people will keep increasing the amount they take to improve performance until it becomes dangerous.  It's to protect the athletes.  The weigh-in seems entirely analogous to me, <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Well then, why not just go to any documented weight in the persons lifetime. I used to be 160lbs at my present height (long ago) and sweating down would be extremely dangerous at this point. If a couple hours is no good, and a day is better, 26 years should be perfectly safe. <br /><br />I like seeing the "true lwts" vigorously defending the territory that the hwts were kind enough to extend to them. <br /><br />Besides, just like the coxie races, it's fun to see the look of pain on their wee faces.

[[old] FrancoisA]

<!--QuoteBegin-Physicist+Feb 2 2005, 03:45 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Physicist @ Feb 2 2005, 03:45 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But people WILL dehydrate to make lwt if a lwt category exists.  That's inevitable.  You don't want to put people in a situation where they have to weigh up (no pun intended) their safety against their chances of winning.  Because the nature of competition is such that they will push it further and further, and then too far.  So you remove the conflict by making it less dangerous to dehydrate, as there is time to rehydrate.<br /> </td></tr></table><br />In endurance sports, there is a decrease of about 2 percent in pace for each 1 percent of body weight lost in dehydration (Joe Friel: The Triathlete's Training Bible). Because of this penalty on performance, there comes a point where more dehydration would not be worth it to make the lwt category. Very likely, that level of dehydration is not catastrophic for an event that last around six minutes. Therefore, by weighing the athlete immediately after the event, a little "cheating" is possible with a consequent price on performance, while with the weighing well in advance, athlete are encouraged to ingest diuretics do severely dehydrate themselves since they will have time to rehydrate before their events: big "cheating" with no consequence on performance!