Concept2 Forum

The mass start format used at Crash B's and similar events uses one start time for everyone.<br><br>However, this is not very accurate, as rowers are not penalized for starting ahead of the clock, and others who start at the right time are not picked up right away by the timing.<br><br>These differences can add up to 2 seconds or more per rower.<br><br>Skiing uses an electronic timing device that's automatically activated when the skier begins a run. <br><br>Other sports do this too.<br><br>Having electronic timing activated by each rower independently, when their individual erg starts, would result in more accurate timing overall.<br><br>The individual times could be merged into the mass updates and results as they are now, actually no difference, except the final times would be much more accurate for each person.<br>

I voted for "keep it the same". Having one start time makes the race much more interesting to race and is much more interesting for the spectators. If everyone started at different times, it would be much more like individual time trials than a race.<br><br>With the PM3, you can't "jump" the start as you could with the countdown on the PM2+. The amount that you could anticipate the start was only a fraction of a second with the PM2+ and not anywhere near 2 seconds.<br><br>Cheers,<br><br>Paul Flack

Hi Paul,<br><br>My explanation wasn't clear.<br><br>Everyone will still start at the same time. Nothing is different, with the exception that the time for each rower is started when the rower starts.<br><br>There is the same "ready - set - go" for all rowers.<br><br>The main point here and the only difference is that the time for each rower is taken from when the rower starts. <br><br>There could be some ruling at if all rowers don't start within 2 seconds of "go" then the start will be done over, similar to how it is done now.<br><br>Currently rowers can start before or after "go", as the time is taken from "go" and not when the individual rower starts. Also, unless I'm mistaken, any given rower can start even a second or two before "go", and the time is still taken from "go".<br><br>Timing from when the rowers starts will eliminate any advantage from starting early, and eliminate any disadvantate from starting a few tenths or a second late.<br><br>The pacing boards etc, will also be more accurate as to the actual pace for each person.

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'><span class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></span> </td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There could be some ruling at if all rowers don't start within 2 seconds of "go" then the start will be done over<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><br>A better way might be that if you don't start within 2 secs of go, the clock starts anyway...<br><br>That way there is no incentive to anticipate the start, but late starters won't cause a false start.<br><br>Also with a < 2 sec potential difference the E-Row could show a pretty much acurate display of the positions, using some smoothing of the slight variation in start times.<br><br>I think you will find that with the PM3 there will not be a 2 sec delay anyway, the delay was caused by the 9600 serial cable linking the machines.<br><br>I think (and hope I'm right) that this will no longer be an issue now that each erg communicates individually with the server rather than a slow daisy chained serial link.

While it's difficult to seperate a Time Trial and a Race in the venue of Indoor Rowing, this is how C2 has chosen to do it, and it sure appears to be successful.<br><br>Taking the start into account is integral to the feel of "Racing" and of course it should be maintained.<br><br>In Rowing; Would anyone suggest that each Boat should be individually timed from the moment they choose to begin rowing and the time they cross the finish line? Or would that be considered a bit strange? (Certainly the facility with GPS would make it quite easy to do)<br><br>Making it happen "On the day, and at the time" is what makes it all exciting and competitive, by introducing an unknown into an otherwise very repeatable task.<br><br>Cheers,<br>Paul Smith

<!--QuoteBegin-Cran+Oct 11 2004, 02:35 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'><span class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></span> (Cran @ Oct 11 2004, 02:35 AM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->A better way might be that if you don't start within 2 secs of go, the clock starts anyway...<br><br>That way there is no incentive to anticipate the start, but late starters won't cause a false start.<br><br><!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><br>Cran,<br><br>Great idea.<br><br>Actually the current setup with the pm3 appears to be worse than it was with the pm2. At the 2004 crash b's there were several rowers who reported starting a second or two ahead of the clock, this resulting in it taking 30 seconds or so for the top competitors to catch them.<br><br>Conversely some others who started right at the signal reported the timing didn't pick them up right away, and they lost about 2 seconds from starting on time.<br><br>Having the electronic timing begin from when EACH rower starts individually will solve both of these problems.<br><br>Many sports besides skiing are already doing this.<br><br>Even mass start marathons with thousands of competitors are now using electronic timing, started when each runner crosses the start line and stopped when they cross the finish.<br><br>Olympic competitions are not the same, as the fields are small, and competitors are penalized for starting early. For example rowing competitions usually have no more than 6 boats at a time at the most, and none of them are allowed to start early.<br><br>With the current system in place at crash b's, there is a huge advantage to starting on "ready", and there is a noted disadvantage for starting at the start time.

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'><span class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></span> </td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Actually the current setup with the pm3 appears to be worse than it was with the pm2<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><br>That's a shame, it should be possible to sort it out, maybe it just needs new race software to take better advantage of the new network links.<br><br>At Cambridge they were still using eRow with the PM3's. I assumed it was talking direct to each rower, but maybe it is still sending data by passing it from one rower to the next like when it was on a serial cable. who knows...?

" unless I'm mistaken, any given rower can start even a second or two before "go", and the time is still taken from "go".<br><br>John,<br> This is not the case. I was at the official C2 race start demonstration before the last Crash Bs. It was held at the "Marriott Hotel" where everyone was given the opportunity to try a race start. I remember asking the question of what happens when someone tries to "jump" the start.<br><br>In response a mock "jump" start was set up. The end result was that the race was automatically stopped by way of a universal Stop sign appearing on everyone's monitor and no further timing until it was reset.<br><br>Hence, I believe you cannot "jump" the start but there is nothing to stop you from being caught unprepared at the start and missing the first few strokes.<br><br><br>Keep it smooth, keep it relaxed<br>Roland Baltutis<br>

<!--QuoteBegin-Roland Baltutis+Oct 12 2004, 12:46 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'><span class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></span> (Roland Baltutis @ Oct 12 2004, 12:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I was at the official C2 race start demonstration before the last Crash Bs. It was held at the "Marriott Hotel" where everyone was given the opportunity to try a race start. I remember asking the question of what happens when someone tries to "jump" the start.<br><br>In response a mock "jump" start was set up. The end result was that the race was automatically stopped by way of a universal Stop sign appearing on everyone's monitor and no further timing until it was reset.<br><br>Keep it smooth, keep it relaxed<br>Roland Baltutis <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><br> Roland,<br><br>Please do not confuse this by introducing facts.<br><br>- Paul Smith<br><br>PS - How are things Down Under?, congrats on T&G, and keep kicking T's butt in the 1x....

Roland, Are you going to the Aussie Champs? Isn't it soon, like this weekend maybe? Is so good luck and tell John Harvey hello. dennis

<!--QuoteBegin-Roland Baltutis+Oct 12 2004, 05:46 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'><span class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></span> (Roland Baltutis @ Oct 12 2004, 05:46 AM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The end result was that the race was automatically stopped by way of a universal Stop sign appearing on everyone's monitor and no further timing until it was reset.<br><br>Hence, I believe you cannot "jump" the start but there is nothing to stop you from being caught unprepared at the start and missing the first few strokes.<br><br><!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><br>Roland,<br><br>Thanks for the update on the start procedure. <br><br>I didn't see anyone jump a start on the videos, but did see a couple of rowers appear to nudge the flywheel ahead of time, i.e. their hands were moving before the start, but the sequence kept going.<br><br>I wonder if it was the same at Crash B's. If so, they should have had a few Stop signs considering all the participants who were there. Does anyone know if they did?<br><br><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'><span class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></span> </td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Hence, I believe you cannot "jump" the start but there is nothing to stop you from being caught unprepared at the start and missing the first few strokes.<br><br><!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><br>There were quite a few who were caught unprepared at the start. Perhaps the start sequence is confusing. In any case the sequence, pickup and timing should be as accurate as possible and not left to chance.<br>

<!--QuoteBegin-dennish+Oct 12 2004, 04:22 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'><span class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></span> (dennish @ Oct 12 2004, 04:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Roland, Are you going to the Aussie Champs? Isn't it soon, like this weekend maybe? Is so good luck   and tell John Harvey hello. dennis<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><br>The Australian Championships are on this weekend and I'll be there again. There are 540 athletes entered for the three race distances of 500m, 1000m and 2000m. 540 may seem like a reasonable number for "Down Under" however most of it is made up of school kids. Nevertheless it should be a good day as the event is always well run by C2 Australia.<br><br>John Harvey is entered for all three race distances and I shall pass on your regards to him. Good to see that he's well enough to race again. Seems like there's quite a number of competitors from interstate, not just locals. The weather is forecast for a fine sunny 22 Celsius day which is better than the hot humid conditions we had to put up with earlier in the week.<br><br>C2 are selling one day old race machines after the event for $2,024 Aussie dollars (normally $2,442 new out of the box). Not so much of a bargain when you know how much you could pick one up for after the Crash Bs. Still there might be some takers anyway.<br><br>Keep it smooth, keep it relaxed<br>Roland Baltutis<br>

There were a few stop signs at the BIRC last year, although they seemed to be using D model ergs with a mixture of PM3 and PM2+ monitors. Certainly I used a machine with a PM2+. It seemed to be that when a false start occured one line of competitors would be stopped, then re-started, and the rest of the field would just carry on. I'm not sure if they use a different timing system there, though.