Concept2 Forum

After reading a lot of this forum, I've pretty much concluded that 30+ spm is not an optimum way to be using the rower. So I've been trying to lower my spm over the last few sessions, and it's been ... hard. <br /><br />I just finished a 10k row, and my time has vaulted up from my around-41:00, 32 SPM time to over 42:30 at around 28 SPM. And it feels like a harder workout ... the last km was just trying to make it through with no consideration for speed, and thinking hard about not barfing at the same time. <br /><br />This seems counterintutive to me. If I'm going slower and pulling fewer strokes per minute, shouldn't things be easier? <br /><br />I'd expound but I have to run to work. Help a noob out, science-types?

<!--QuoteBegin-Shepherd+May 6 2005, 04:19 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Shepherd @ May 6 2005, 04:19 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->After reading a lot of this forum, I've pretty much concluded that 30+ spm is not an optimum way to be using the rower. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />A SR=30 is fine, as long as you are at a 1:40 pace... <br /><br />Serioulsy though, what you need to work on is applying power to spin the flywheel faster, rather than rushing up the recovery faster to let the flywheel slow less. The later yields diminishing returns.<br /><br />It's not really your fault this happens, the PM rewards that type of behavior by giving you a faster pace (reward) for the rushed recovery (behavior). It would also give a reward for driving harder, but hey, driving hard is toughre than recovering faster (to a point) and we will take the easy way out, naturally (until you become a rower and learn to take the hard path in training so that racing is easy).<br /><br />Train Hard, Race Easy.

So I imagine that trying to "get back up" to the 41-minute mark at 28 SR would mean building more power per stroke, yes? <br /><br />One thing I definitely noticed was I was paying a lot more attention to form at the lower stroke rate. It gave me more time to think and I didn't catch myself "flailing," which I do at the higher rate. <br />

Just for fun sometimes PaulS skips over the easy part of his advice. "I" would recommend rowing strapless (take your feet out of the straps) and targeting 10 meters per stroke. For you, that would mean rowing around a 2:05 pace at SR=24. I would guess rowing strapless will make it a lot harder to rush the recovery up the slide.<br /><br />Even if this is harder and seems slower for the next couple of months, I think it will be worth it to build your foundation with better technique and more power.

Shephard,<br /><br />For a 10k time trial, you are better off going at 32 spm than at 28 spm, although this somewhat depends on your torso height and your fitness.<br /><br />The monitor is based on power output, as measured by watts and converted to pace. Thus the more power you generate, the higher the watts, and the faster your pace.<br /><br />Also you should realize that PaulS is a troll, and has nothing of any importance to contribute. I have put him permanently in the iggie bin, and this alone has made a major difference as to the quality of the forum.

<!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+May 6 2005, 12:09 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ May 6 2005, 12:09 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Also you should realize that PaulS is a troll, and has nothing of any importance to contribute.  I have put him permanently in the iggie bin, and this alone has made a major difference as to the quality of the forum. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />I'm a "Troll"?

Shepherd,<br /><br />In my first four months I have found it has been very beneficial to work on technique so that I can train at 22-24 spm and use that to start to build the power (or meters) per stroke. Then this can be worked on to maintain the same output per stroke at the higher stroke rates and guess what; I can go faster!<br /><br />It is important though to ensure that this training is done at levels appropriate for your fitness. There is litle if any benefit to be gained from doing a session aiming at a higher output per stroke if to achieve this you need to work harder.<br /><br />There is a lot of info on the forum and the websites about training bands (UT2/UT1/AT etc) that you should read. The aim is to be able over time and through training smart to produce more power for a given exertion rate, normally measured as heart rate. This is real improvement.<br /><br />Neil.

[[right] <br />[/quote]<br /><br />I'm a "Troll"? <br />[/quote]<br /><br /><br />An adorable troll meaning a loving giant who watches over the forum. <br />

Thanks all -- this is very informative. I think I'm going to forego the strapless rowing until I feel I have a handle on "regular" rowing! <br /><br /><!--QuoteBegin-neilb+May 7 2005, 12:35 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(neilb @ May 7 2005, 12:35 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There is a lot of info on the forum and the websites about training bands (UT2/UT1/AT etc) that you should read. The aim is to be able over time and through training smart to produce more power for a given exertion rate, normally measured as heart rate.  This is real improvement.<br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />I've been poking around and looking for this when I find time. A stroke rate of 24 seems crazy impossible, but then again, maintaining a rate under 2:00/500m seemed impossible a month ago and is now within my grasp.<br /><br />I'm thinking a heart rate monitor wouldn't be a bad thing to save up for. At the moment, I'm still only about three months into rowing, so I think just the action itself is providing serious benefits, but I need to start thinking more about training in the future. I have no interest in racing at the moment, but who knows how I'll feel a year from now?

<b>Shepherd </b> I don't understand why you're struggling with the idea of a stroke rate below 30SPM. In my world 30SPM is for very short sprints such as starts, crossing the finish line, and occassional spurts in the middle. It's not for the main part of the piece. A stroke rate of 24SPM is absolutely normal for most distances - I normally train at 23/24SPM, with a drag setting of 4 to 5, and 2.10 split. <br /><br />As per everyone else's comments, what you need to think about is form - dramatically increasing pressure and speed through the drive, and dramatically reducing the speed at which you come back up the slide during your recovery. It's as simple as that. <br /><br />Quote:<br />"I think I'm going to forego the strapless rowing until I feel I have a handle on "regular" rowing!"<br />Nope. Strapless rowing is THE way to learn how to get a handle on "regular" rowing - it will teach you to maintain good form and stops you relying on the bad technique of hauling yourself up the slide with the footstraps.

<br />Whispering to myself and standing very still...<br /><br />(uh-oh, how did I get myself in the middle of this topic? I spotted a quick exit and I'm out the door 20 seconds flat. Sorry, Shepherd but you're going to have to fend for yourself on this one. I have already done my deed for the day.)<br /><br />I like your comic strip. Have you watched the X-men series and Electra?

Shepherd, as you say: This seems counterintutive to me. If I'm going slower and pulling fewer strokes per minute, shouldn't things be easier? <br /><br />Well yes, but then most of rowing seems to be counterintuitive. It is however strictly Newtonian. So thinking about the three factors that multiplied together equal Power (Length, Force and Rating) and Sir Isaac, we can reach some interesting conclusions:<br /><br />Conclusion 1: a Long Weak Stroke is just as good at accelerating a boat as a short hard one; so let's start by pulling Long strokes, it could be easier on the tendons, and it could be good for us in general.<br /><br />Conclusion 2: Weak has its limits in shifting boats, so sooner or later the stroke will have to be not just Long, but also Strong. Within reasonable limits of course, noting that a half hour and so minimum 600 strokes, is just for starters.<br /><br />Conclusion 3: the only factor left is Rating. As we are not provided with infinite power, let's fix the others and adjust this according to what we want to or can do or how long we want to carry on. This alone will let us get as near or far from our AT as we like.<br /><br />Once you get to C3, you are an oarsman if not an oarslady. No further grumbling is allowed, come rain shine or snow. You wanted the oar, now pull it.

<!--QuoteBegin-Manda+May 10 2005, 08:19 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Manda @ May 10 2005, 08:19 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Shepherd </b> I don't understand why you're struggling with the idea of a stroke rate below 30SPM.  In my world 30SPM is for very short sprints such as starts, crossing the finish line, and occassional spurts in the middle. It's not for the main part of the piece.  A stroke rate of 24SPM is absolutely normal for most distances - I normally train at 23/24SPM, with a drag setting of 4 to 5, and 2.10 split. </td></tr></table><br /><br />Whooooa. I can't say WHY I'm struggling with it -- I just started using the rower, and 32 SPM was the speed I sort of naturally wound up using. I didn't get the tape with the rower (bought it from an erg competition, and I guess the video got lost in transit somewhere), so I used the diagrams and had a friend show me how to use a rower (she was a triathlete and erg nut) at the gym I went to, and I guess she was a "fast rower" too. So I just started at 32 SPM, and trying to slow down is tricky. <br /><br /><!--QuoteBegin-Manda+May 10 2005, 08:19 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Manda @ May 10 2005, 08:19 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As per everyone else's comments, what you need to think about is form - dramatically increasing  pressure and speed through the drive, and dramatically reducing the speed at which you come back up the slide during your recovery. It's as simple as that. </td></tr></table><br /><br />The problem I'm having is that power, to some extent, = speed. I can't push with my legs and pull with my arms with any force without speeding up the speed of my push/pull. Without actually STOPPING at the outermost point for a second, I can't get my stroke rate down. Intellectually, I know it must be possible because y'all do it, but getting there is tricky. <br /><br /><!--QuoteBegin-Manda+May 10 2005, 08:19 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Manda @ May 10 2005, 08:19 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Nope. Strapless rowing is THE way to learn how to get a handle on "regular" rowing - it will teach you to maintain good form and stops you relying on the bad technique of hauling yourself up the slide with the footstraps.<br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Sold! I'm off to try a 5k strapless row in lieu of my regular row right now. I'll post back with how it went later.

<!--QuoteBegin-Shepherd+May 12 2005, 06:19 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Shepherd @ May 12 2005, 06:19 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Sold! I'm off to try a 5k strapless row in lieu of my regular row right now. I'll post back with how it went later.<br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Gotta run to shower and get to work, but a few quick observations from my first strapless row:<br /><br />- I expected to go slower with a reduced stroke rate and to feel more burn in my legs from the additional "work" to pull myself back.<br /><br />- I did go slower -- an average of 2:11.8/500 compared to my "strapped" 1:59/500ish time. <br /><br />- I didn't lower my stroke rate significantly. I averaged 27-28 SPM instead of 28-29 SPM. I would drop down to 26 SPM sometimes, but often got back up to 30 SPM when I was in a "groove." <br /><br />- The row wasn't effortless, but it was the easiest row I've ever had. I usually get off the rower when I'm done and pant for a few seconds. This time, it was a shrug and on to the weights. That's the first time that's ever happened. <br /><br />- I instinctively "dig in" with my heels, which is something I tried to correct by keeping my toes on the foot support at all times. Partially successful. <br /><br />- I didn't get the same abdominal work I do from strapped rowing, because I couldn't lean back and pull myself up with my abs the way I normally do.<br /><br />- I could really feel the muscles on either side of my spine getting worked, I guess because I'm pulling myself back with my core instead of my abs (??)<br /><br />I imagine if I keep rowing strapless (10 km tomorrow in lieu of my normal 10 km strapped)? that time will improve, but I'm surprised my stroke rate hasn't dropped. <br /><br />- Matt

<!--QuoteBegin-JaneW.+May 10 2005, 10:03 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(JaneW. @ May 10 2005, 10:03 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I like your comic strip. Have you watched the X-men series and Electra? <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />And thanks, Jane! We live to serve. I'm a big fan of the X-films, but haven't seen Elektra... it looks like a 99-cent rental when moves off the new release shelf.