Concept2 Forum

This subject has been touched on before. Some very good C2 performers have stated their supplementation regimine previously, notably Dwaynne and Diesel. The following piece caught my attention.<br />I have been off creatine for a few months due to a low level of training. I'm starting to pick up my intensity and was doing some reading about any better products!<br /><br /><!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Exercise Without Supplementation is Suicide <br /><br />Exercise without supplementation is suicide, these are the words of Dr. Joel D. Wallach. How true they are. EXERCISE WITHOUT COMPLETE AND OPTIMAL SUPPLEMENTATION IS SELF DESTRUCTIVE, and suicide. Farmers and ranchers very systematically put in vitamins, minerals, and trace minerals in animal feeds to prevent and cure disease and illnesses. They learned that working and producing animals (all the way from the cow to the racehorse) need additional nutrients above and beyond subsistence and maintenance levels. The same goes, and more so, with humans. In many studies done, we find an increase in the frequency and severity of sports injuries, behavioral problems, degenerative diseases, and even death in athletes because of this neglect. High output athletes without supplementation are more susceptible to emotional, traumatic, and degenerative diseases than the classic couch potatoe (or is that potato?). Certainly the average weekend athlete with common sense, would not throw their life away by not supplementing with the known 103 essential nutrients each day (72 minerals, 16 vitamins, 12 essential amino acids, and 3 essential fatty acids). Certainly then the highly conditioned and trained serious athlete, who invests considerable amount of time and money in their training and fitness programs, would not throw their health or lives away by not supplementing either. The majority of people who exercise do not take a vitamin and mineral supplement. They have bought into the medical dogma that “if you eat right, you do not need to supplement; you can get everything you need from the four food groups" (WHICH IN MOST CASES IS TONS AND TONS OF TOO MANY CARBS), and that if you supplement, "it only gives you expensive urine". Our farm and range soils are so depleted of nutrients as a result of 100 to 200 years of intensive farming without appropriate mineral replacement. Why is it they cannot seem to make the connection that the food on their plate is anemic in nutrients? Two and two still equals four, so be smart as an athlete and supplement. Not only will it enhance your performance, it could save your life. </td></tr></table><br />

Sports supplementation is like walking through a minefield. There are so many products out there being complicated further by their manufacturers making all sorts of glorious claims. It's very difficult to make the right choice without sound unbiased advice.<br /><br /> There is heaps of unbiased scientific evidence suggesting certain supplements will aid performance and recovery. The problem is however that these unbiased scientific tests rarely mention specific brand names so the uneducated on the topic have to learn from trial and error.<br /><br />It took me years to learn what I know about supplementation and even now it's difficult to keep pace with new research and products.<br /><br />Even if you stick to the proven result getters such as creatine, protein and L-Glutamine you can still get it all wrong. There are many different forms of Creatine and Protein plus concentrations also vary depending on the brand. Before or after exercise, quantity and intensity matter heaps. If you don't get it right then you could be spending a lot of time in the toilet witnessing the result of your expensive blunder.<br /><br />I believe I now have a good reliable supplement program which changes during the year depending on the sport and phase of my training. Most are Aussie brands but there are some quality USA brands amoungst them.<br /><br />Rockin Roland

<!--QuoteBegin-Roland Baltutis+Dec 12 2005, 10:31 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Roland Baltutis @ Dec 12 2005, 10:31 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><br />It took me years to learn what I know about supplementation and even now it's difficult to keep pace with new research and products.<br /><br />I believe I now have a good reliable supplement program which changes during the year depending on the sport and phase of my training. Most are Aussie brands but there are some quality USA brands amoungst them.<br /><br />Rockin Roland <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Please let us know some details, even if only the most important ones.<br /><br />Myself, not very scientific:<br /><br />Protein powder<br />Amino acids<br />Antioxydants (Vitamins C,E, Alpha Lipoic acid, Coenzyme Q10)<br />Glutamine<br /><br />But unfortunately not with enough discipline and regularity.

<!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->regularity. </td></tr></table><br /><br />= fiber! <br /><br />

<!--QuoteBegin-H_2O+Dec 13 2005, 06:14 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(H_2O @ Dec 13 2005, 06:14 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Roland Baltutis+Dec 12 2005, 10:31 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Roland Baltutis @ Dec 12 2005, 10:31 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><br />It took me years to learn what I know about supplementation and even now it's difficult to keep pace with new research and products.<br /><br />I believe I now have a good reliable supplement program which changes during the year depending on the sport and phase of my training. Most are Aussie brands but there are some quality USA brands amoungst them.<br /><br />Rockin Roland <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Please let us know some details, even if only the most important ones.<br /><br />Myself, not very scientific:<br /><br />Protein powder<br />Amino acids<br />Antioxydants (Vitamins C,E, Alpha Lipoic acid, Coenzyme Q10)<br />Glutamine<br /><br />But unfortunately not with enough discipline and regularity. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br /><br /><br />Having spent the last 14 years in the Sports Nutrition/Supplementatioon Business, I feel an obligation to reply - simply to help educate the many who find it utterly confusing! <br /><br />Sports Nutrition can be divided into 3 seperate but very connected segments:<br />1. Creating Optimal Health in our everyday life. <br />2. Hydration.<br />3. Recovery.<br /><br />The First Factor is to determine reputable Supplements / Companies. How?<br />- The Nutrients in the Supplements must be delivered to the cell in bioavailable forms (the body must utilize the nutrients). The ONLY I have seen to determine that is with:<br />THIRD PARTY CLINICAL PROOF THAT IS PUBLISHED IN MAJOR MEDICAL JOURNALS. In other words - show me proof that when I take a supplement, it is getting into my cells! The scientific studies printed in major medical journals is Good science. The supplement companies that test their products with a third party in a double blind study, who use appropriate and ethical methods, will have their studies printed in the major medical journals.<br /><br />What companies do that? A colleague of mine researched almost 100 companies over the last 15 years and found that only one company has spent the millions of dollars to do the research and have it printed in major medical journals. That was Shaklee. Let me say upfront, that I have a business where I market Shaklee products and have done so over the last 13 years. So I do have somewhat of a bias toward them, but my suggestion is to look at the supplements you are taking objectively. I guarantee if they have spent the Millions of $ necessary to properly research their products, they will have that information easily accessible.<br /><br />Once you have found a reputable company, then you can design a program that works best for you. <br /><br />Start with creating Optimal health. Besides getting proper rest, reduced levels of stress, a positive attitude, having a great diet rich in fruits, vegetables, low fat proteins and essential good fats - what supplements can you use to guarantee you have nutritional insurance? Studies have shown time and again that even if we eat "properly", we will be deficient in Calcium, Antioxidents (ie. C, E, Carotenoids), B Complex Vitamins (For essential utilization of B's - they must be used in balance - look for smaller amounts of Biotin as a way for companies to skimp on nutrients - which is the most expensive B vitamin) and Protein. So a Basic starting package should include a Protein Supplement, A comprehensive multivitamin, Antioxidents, Calcium and probobly some essential fatty acids because must people do not get enough "good fats". I always recommend Soy Protein for optimal health and whey protein for recovery - later on that. Look for Soy that is water washed in the processing - not acid washed - and they use no heat as well. Reason for Soy is twofold - contrary to old fashioned beliefs, it is a complete protein with all 9 essential amino acids and it has significant side benefits - improved mood, lowering of cholesterol and it does not tax the kidneys during digestion as most animal proteins will.<br /><br />HYDRATION:<br />Don't wait until you are thirsty before drinking!!!!!! Thirst is your body's signal that you need to rehydrate yourself. If you waited till you are thirsty it may be too late. Some athletes may sweat away 5 - 8 pounds during an event (probobly not a 2k), however, it only takes a 2% loss in body weight to severely weaken performance. An average person should consume 1/2 their body weight in ounces of water - you weigh 200 pounds - consume at least 100 ounces of water. You are not average! You consistently Torture yourself on the insidious thing we call an erg! Most athletes need more and better hydration. Also, most people "sip" water during training and long events - the key is to consume larger amounts at one time so gravity can be utilized in the absorbtion process. For those trying to lose weight, consume 20 - 30 ounces when you start getting hungry and it will curb your appetite. <br /><br />Most agree that a Sports Drink is essential for optimum hydration. What should you look for in a Sports drink?<br />1. All six electrolytes (minerals) - Calcium, Sodium, Potassium, Magnesium, Phosphorus and Chloride. When you sweat, you lose all 6 of these. Then why do most sports drinks not have all six to replace what you lost? <br />2. A Sodium / Potassium ratio of approx 2.2 to 1 - this has to do with the Sodium - Potassium pump and the ability of fluids to be absorbed.<br />3. At least 100 mg of sodium. Your body cannot absorb fluids effectively without this!<br />4. At least 20 - 25 grams of carbs - but a mixture of 3 types - fast burning - like glucose so you get immediate energy - a medium burning carb like fructose - and a slow burning carb like maltodextrin so you have long term energy and prevent serious blood sugar fluctuation. When sports drinks have just the simple sugars, you may initially get some energy, but over the long term, it may make your blood sugar dive.<br />5. Should not have artificial colors or flavors - they do not improve performance and can be harmful if used consistently over a period of years.<br />6. Should not have any "natural" herbs or performance enhancers.<br /><br />There are not too many drinks out there that fit all 6 crtiteria - For the last 13 years NASA (US Space Program) has used a Shaklee product called Performance. NASA's astronauts were blacking out upon re entry from outer space due to dehydration. NASA contacted Shaklee and asked if they could research the market and identify a product that would fit those 6 criteria. They did the research and discovered there was nothing on the market that would be that effective. So Shaklee formulated Performance, and now uses it on all flights.<br /><br />RECOVERY:<br />Probobly the most significant - yet often overlooked - aspect of training is the post workout recovery. This phase is called the anabolic phase. This is when your level of fitness increases. And it requires more than just resting.. For optimal recovery, it is important to maximize glycogen stores in muscles and amino acids to facilitate tissue repair and avoid muscle pain. And because excercise breaks down muscle proteins for energy, consuming protein after your workout is essential to building muscle mass and strength. <br /><br />Research in the early 90's and even more recently has suggested this can be accomplished by consuming drink formulations where the Carbohydrate to protein ration is 3 or 4 to 1. Your drink should contain 3 or 4 grams of carbs to every one gram of protein. The protein should be whey protein which has shown to provide a better glycemic response. Also essential to absorbtion is Chromium. Specifically Chromium Nicotinate - which has been shown to be 300% more bioavailable than Chromium Picolinate. Another factor is the amount of Protein you consume - physiologically humans are capable of utilizing 30 - 40 grams of protein every 3 - 4 hours. So there is a three hour window of opportunity for you to maximize glycogen and amino acid assimilation. By consuming regular food, this will not be possible because normal digestion takes hours, so what do you do? <br /><br />Let's say you do a killer workout on your erg - totally wasted - you will want to rehydrate and allow your glycogen and amino acid levels to return to optimal levels which will allow you to perform at an even higher level the next time you trash yourself! How can this be accomplished? You will want a formulation that has approximately 15 grams of protein and has a delivery system that will get the nutrients into your cells within 20 - 30 minutes. After hard workouts, you would use it within 20 minutes and again 90 - 120 minutes later. This would give you your 30 grams of protein and a maximum insulin response for essential utilization of glycogem and amino acids. Again, Shaklee was the pioneer in this area of research - formulating a product called Physique that has been used over and over with great results. It was formulated to maximize recovery for both strength and endurance athletes for the rebuilding response following excercise. An enhanced anabolic state can result in increased muscle mass and power for strength athletes and faster glycogen resynthesis(energy return) for endurance athletes. <br /><br />Bottom line - you gotta do the hard training to maximize your potential! There are some good products out there which will enhance your performance - legally! But there is no regulation by the FDA or other agencies, so unscrupulous people can take advantage of you! Good luck with your training and racing! I have a free power point sports nutrition presentation on CD rom I send out all the time. Feel free to contact me if you would like one. Have an awesome day!<br /><br />Skip Donnelly <br />wdonnelly1@cox.net<br />401-578-0701<br />

<!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->and a slow burning carb like maltodextrin </td></tr></table><br /><br /><br /><!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Maltodextrin<br />Maltodextrin is a very low cost ingredient derived from corn. Although it is considered a complex carbohydrate and a glucose polymer, it has a very high glycemic index rating (this is a rating which determines how your blood sugar and hence insulin responds after ingesting carbohydrates). In fact, maltodextrin's rating on the glycemic scale is right up there with maltose which is glucose + glucose. That means it can cause a large insulin response which would be beneficial after a weight training workout but not beneficial other times of the day.<br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />High Glycemic index equates to fast burning!<br /><br /><!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->so unscrupulous people can take advantage of you! </td></tr></table><br /><br />The Multi-Level Marketing "Health/Nutrition and well-being" industry is also full of these types.

<!--QuoteBegin-gw1+Dec 13 2005, 11:46 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(gw1 @ Dec 13 2005, 11:46 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->and a slow burning carb like maltodextrin </td></tr></table><br /><br /><br /><!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Maltodextrin<br />Maltodextrin is a very low cost ingredient derived from corn. Although it is considered a complex carbohydrate and a glucose polymer, it has a very high glycemic index rating (this is a rating which determines how your blood sugar and hence insulin responds after ingesting carbohydrates). In fact, maltodextrin's rating on the glycemic scale is right up there with maltose which is glucose + glucose. That means it can cause a large insulin response which would be beneficial after a weight training workout but not beneficial other times of the day.<br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />High Glycemic index equates to fast burning!<br /><br /><!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->so unscrupulous people can take advantage of you! </td></tr></table><br /><br />The Multi-Level Marketing "Health/Nutrition and well-being" industry is also full of these types. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br /><br />I appreciate your skepticism and doubt! The industry has had a reputation for hype and false claims. Shaklee is the largest producer of natural nutritional supplements in the US. They have a 50 year heritage with no lawsuits and uncompromised integrity. The FDA is establishing manufacturing procedures for Supplement companies based on Shaklee's manufacturing facility in Norman, Ok.<br />The FDA invited all supplement companies to come and show their research a number of years ago - the only one who showed up was Shaklee. Eight out of Time Life's Greatest Adventures were powered by Shaklee Products. Including Mt. Everest - First American ascent without oxygen - Voyager - first non stop flight around the world without refueling - Daedalus Project - set world record for human powered flight - and in the last Olympics - 30 Gold medal winners used Shaklee - including Gary Hall in the 50 meter freestyle. Gary Hall is also a diabetic and uses the Shaklee performance for hydration because it is a slower burn and does not cause the blood sugar fluctuations that most drinks do. Also, none of these athletes were paid - they actually sought out Shaklee because of their reputation for producing products that get results with no possibility of having banned substances present. In fact - Dean Smith (world record holder 75 - 79 lightweight) has used Shaklee for OVER 30 YEARS! And he uses them by the handful three times a day! <br /><br />You can always check out the Published research on Performance if you like:<br /><br />Clinical Studies:<br />Shaklee Performance: Effective hydration and more energy<br />FASEB J 1990;4:A381(abstr)<br /><br />Shaklee Performance: Maximizing Endurance<br />J Applied Physiology 1993;75:1477-85<br /><br />My wife has a very strong scientific background and was extremely skeptical too, until she really looked and saw the proof and the results she was getting. Have an awesome day! Skip D<br /><br /><br />

<!--QuoteBegin-SkipD+Dec 13 2005, 08:35 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(SkipD @ Dec 13 2005, 08:35 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->4. At least 20 - 25 grams of carbs - but a mixture of 3 types - fast burning - like glucose so you get immediate energy - a medium burning carb like fructose - and a slow burning carb like maltodextrin so you have long term energy and prevent serious blood sugar fluctuation. When sports drinks have just the simple sugars, you may initially get some energy, but over the long term, it may make your blood sugar dive.<br />Skip Donnelly <br />wdonnelly1@cox.net<br />401-578-0701 <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Interesting and informative report. Thank you. I have one question, however. Did you limit the discussion of carbohydrates to those three because they are the ones available in sports drinks? Basically, the major source of carbohydrates (and of calories in general) should be the polysaccharides, but I don't suppose that these would be available in sports drinks which are designed for quick digestion. Also, since one step in the metabolism of glucose involves the isomerism of glucose-6-phosphate to the corresponding fructose-6-phosphate, I am suprised that glucose would be regarded as being utilized more rapidly. It might be that the unphosphorylated fructose, as ingested, is not directly phosphrylated, and its metabolism is thus delayed.<br /><br /><a href='http://www.mansfield.ohio-state.edu/~sa ... ol4025.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.mansfield.ohio-state.edu/~sa ... htm</a><br /><br />Maltodextrin is a bit of a catchall term. It seems to vary widely in its properties, depending on its source and the method of hydrolysis (of the source polysaccharides) used.<br /><br /><a href='http://www.foodproductdesign.com/archiv ... 897DE.html' target='_blank'>http://www.foodproductdesign.com/archiv ... tml</a><br /><br />This suggests that there might be caution advised in picking which maltodextrin to use.<br /><br />Bob S.<br />

<!--QuoteBegin-SkipD+Dec 13 2005, 10:35 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(SkipD @ Dec 13 2005, 10:35 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Shaklee ...<br />Skip Donnelly <br /><br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Some of this is unabashed sales hype not of the most clever variety (Nasa, Time life adventures etc.)<br />You are on the US development squad so I assume you are good enough rower to know what real fitness is and you can assume the same of us.<br /><br />But thanks for the useful information.<br />From the vantage point of a rower the following come to mind:<br /><br />1. Hydration.<br /><br />Unless you are going for a marathon time trial you won't be too concerned to hydrate your UT2 row<br />according to the latest scientific principles. The sports drinks are much too expensive for what the cost of the ingredients is and you can easily duplicate most of it yourself by buying the chemicals and mixing them into your drink in the proper proportion.<br /><br />I don't see why its so important to have slower sugars in your drink if you drink during the exertion<br />where the sugars will be burned as soon as they get into the blood stream.<br />Glucose and fructose are widely available and cheap. But I would not even buy fructose since high fructose corn syrup is in every cheap juice in the supermarket.<br /><br />My own drink containing magnesium citrate, potassium chloride and cooking salt with some cheap widely available "fruit juice" (water, glucose, high fructose corn syrup and at least 5% fruit juice from concentrate) is superior since I also supplement it with Vitamin C another cheap ingredient.<br /><br />2. Recovery.<br /><br />Why does the protein/carbohydrate mixture have to be in liquid form premixed in the proper proportions. Given how cheap the carbs are this sort of stuff is a high profit margin item for Shaklee and others. <br /><br />I am sure the proteins in that are the cheapest available.<br /><br />Why don't you make your own protein shake, take amino acid tablets or BCAAs or liquid amino acid product and if you are worried about getting enough carbohydrates eat some cheap fitness bars and chew them well --- they'll be absorbed just as well as the liquid product.<br /><br />It's a ridiculous idea to pay a company like Shaklee for CARBOHYDRATES.

Some info from the US government:<br /><a href='http://www.fitness.gov/digest_jun1998.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.fitness.gov/digest_jun1998.htm</a><br /><br />Another interesting link:<br /><a href='http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/dept/coachsci ... /table.htm' target='_blank'>http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/dept/coachsci ... ble.htm</a>

I supplement with coffee in the morning.<br /><br />

<!--QuoteBegin-SkipD+Dec 13 2005, 10:35 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(SkipD @ Dec 13 2005, 10:35 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->[<br /><br /><br /><br />RECOVERY:<br />Probobly the most significant - yet often overlooked - aspect of training is the post workout recovery. This phase is called the anabolic phase. This is when your level of fitness increases. And it requires more than just resting.. For optimal recovery, it is important to maximize glycogen stores in muscles and amino acids to facilitate tissue repair and avoid muscle pain. And because excercise breaks down muscle proteins for energy, consuming protein after your workout is essential to building muscle mass and strength. <br /><br />Research in the early 90's and even more recently has suggested this can be accomplished by consuming drink formulations where the Carbohydrate to protein ration is 3 or 4 to 1. Your drink should contain 3 or 4 grams of carbs to every one gram of protein. The protein should be whey protein which has shown to provide a better glycemic response. Also essential to absorbtion is Chromium. Specifically Chromium Nicotinate - which has been shown to be 300% more bioavailable than Chromium Picolinate.  Another factor is the amount of Protein you consume - physiologically humans are capable of utilizing 30 - 40 grams of protein every 3 - 4 hours. So there is a three hour window of opportunity for you to maximize glycogen and amino acid assimilation. By consuming regular food, this will not be possible because normal digestion takes hours, so what do you do? <br /><br />Let's say you do a killer workout on your erg - totally wasted - you will want to rehydrate and allow your glycogen and amino acid levels to return to optimal levels which will allow you to perform at an even higher level the next time you trash yourself! How can this be accomplished? You will want a formulation that has approximately 15 grams of protein and has a delivery system that will get the nutrients into your cells within 20 - 30 minutes. After hard workouts, you would use it within 20 minutes and again 90 - 120 minutes later. This would give you your 30 grams of protein and a maximum insulin response for essential utilization of glycogem and amino acids. <b>Again, Shaklee was the pioneer in this area of research - formulating a product called Physique that has been used over and over with great results. It was formulated to maximize recovery for both strength and endurance athletes for the rebuilding response following excercise.</b> An enhanced anabolic state can result in increased muscle mass and power for strength athletes and faster glycogen resynthesis(energy return) for endurance athletes.  <br /><br /><br />Skip Donnelly <br />wdonnelly1@cox.net<br />401-578-0701 <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />We only get the good stuff from the US "Down Under" and I'm afraid to say that I've never heard of Shaklee. Never seen any of your products in our specialist sports supplements stores here so I can't comment on the product.<br /><br />However what does sell in huge volumes from the US here is AST VP2. It is a 100% Hydrolyzed Oligopeptide Isolated Whey Peptide Supplement. In layman's terms that means fast release protein. It is meant to be taken immediately after high intensity exercise. Intervals on the erg. Not endurance work.<br /><br />AST VP2 is one of the best fast release protein products around. I know of many that swear by it and I myself have used it after hard speed work in the period leading up to a major erg race. It has no carbs in it, just fast protein which gets absorbed within 20 minutes. I've noticed massive strength/power gains while using this product. I only use it when developing my strength and speed work on the erg. It's not suitable for endurance workouts on its own.<br /><br />If you are inexperienced with sports supplements and their quality there is one simple test that anyone can do. Mix your drink in a shaker and then when you have drunk most of it, look in the bottom of your shaker or glass. See how much sediment remains down the bottom. If there are large grains of product still left down the bottom then it is a poor quality product. You would have to question how much of the required dosage your body actually absorbed.<br /><br />There are other tests on products that you can do yourself however I don't have the time for now to get into such a complex topic as sports supplements.<br /><br />Rockin Roland

Hi all,<br />I have tried all sorts of supplements , some not healthy ... My conclusion was that they do help but they need to used at large quantites and used consistently . You could double your grocery bill easily. I am a big fan of AST and tried their MAX OT training programm, with results.<br /><br />At the end of the day I came to the conclusion that I could not afford (literally) to train that hard. To get gains you need to train within your bodies natural immune system limits. IOW expect resonable gains from a reasonable work load.<br /><br />May be many of us experience the 3 month training cycle followed by the bodies immune system breaking down from the overloaded workout schedule. I started my supplement carreer with simple things to enhance my immune system like Vit C. I noticed a meaningfull benefit ; no colds for 3 yrs @ the same workout intensity.<br /><br />General health became my focus rather than improved performance or recovery to get that last 10 % from my training.<br /><br />I have standardised on the following and am happy to report increased health and well being :<br />Barley Green<br />Cellfood<br />Brewers Yeast<br />MSM<br />Combination MultiVitamin / B Complex<br />and occasionally NAC<br /><br />I feel great and enjoy my training. Health and well being are my goals . I decided to exercise consistently from the age of 21 when I noticed nature began to slip and have been @ it till now (40 yrs old now). I have given up gym and now only erg with the odd pull up and dips which have been a follow on of my youth.<br /><br />I am aiming to keep progressing till I take the World Record in my age group for the 2k. It will just come at the rate I can recuperate from.<br /><br />I am not against anything anyone else may try , this is merely my personal stance shared for your interest.<br />Regards<br />Ray

<!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It is a 100% Hydrolyzed Oligopeptide Isolated Whey Peptide Supplement. In layman's terms that means fast release protein. </td></tr></table><br /><br />Oligopeptides are basically shorter chained proteins than polypeptides (analogous to oligosaccharides in comparison with polysaccharides). As far as the human body's utilization of protein is concerned, oligopeptides still fall behind the simple amino acids that make up protein. The body must expend energy to disassemble the oligopeptides and reassemble the individual units into the protein and enzymes it requires. If you just supply it with the basic building blocks needed in the first place (amino acids), it becomes a faster, cheaper and more efficient protein utililzation process .

<!--QuoteBegin-michael+Dec 16 2005, 10:23 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(michael @ Dec 16 2005, 10:23 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It is a 100% Hydrolyzed Oligopeptide Isolated Whey Peptide Supplement. In layman's terms that means fast release protein. </td></tr></table><br /><br />Oligopeptides are basically shorter chained proteins than polypeptides (analogous to oligosaccharides in comparison with polysaccharides). As far as the human body's utilization of protein is concerned, oligopeptides still fall behind the simple amino acids that make up protein. The body must expend energy to disassemble the oligopeptides and reassemble the individual units into the protein and enzymes it requires. If you just supply it with the basic building blocks needed in the first place (amino acids), it becomes a faster, cheaper and more efficient protein utililzation process . <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />AST VP2 is one of the fastest absorbed protein supplements around. There are others around but it's just my preference because it works for me.<br /><br />Now you say there is a faster, cheaper and more efficient protein utilization process. You'll have to do better than that and name some specific supplement brand products. No use mentioning something you learnt from a science text book unless you can use a specific brand product as an example. We all want to learn about specific supplements and not just what the science text book says.<br /><br />Rockin Roland