Concept2 Forum

Im a pretty heavy-set guy with a decent amount of muscle mass.<br />I really want to start going for runs in the mornings to improve my cardio. However, I have heard from my coach that doing distance runs too often will cause your body to metabolize some of your muscle. (I have heard this happens to distance swimmers as well.) I need to keep the muscle I have now, and I would like to add some through my weight-lifting program as well...<br /><br />Do you guys know anything about this? Suggestions?

The best way to improve your cardio for longer distance rowing would be to row longer distances! Specificity of training always yields better results.<br />If you really want to do another sport to complement your rowing, I would consider swimming. Because of my swimming background, I was able to pull a 5k in 18:07 after only one month of erging. On the other hand, there is no way I could pull a 500m in 1:29 as you do! (I am 5' 10", 150 lbs). <br />It is true that running long distances could cause a loss of muscle mass. To alleviate this problem, I do weights immediately after my runs, and then I eat an home-made energy bar that is rich in proteins and carbs.<br />Hope this helps!

Going to second FrancoisA on erging over running. Intersting bit of info, Southern Methodist University did a study a few years back on muscle loss during SS training in biking, running, and erging. The study found that muscle loss occured in biking and running, but did not take place in erging. I have to look up the link (don't even know if it is still online) but I believe the difference was due to the innate resistance in erging. <br /><br />If anyone has seen the study or has it, please post a link. So far I can't find it anymore.

<!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Im a pretty heavy-set guy with a decent amount of muscle mass.<br />I really want to start going for runs in the mornings to improve my cardio. However, I have heard from my coach that doing distance runs too often will cause your body to metabolize some of your muscle. (I have heard this happens to distance swimmers as well.) I need to keep the muscle I have now, and I would like to add some through my weight-lifting program as well...<br /><br />Do you guys know anything about this? Suggestions? </td></tr></table><br /><br />bsemaiktehr,<br /><br />At 6'3 / 187lbs and only 17 y.o, and you want to run a couple of sessions a week, while staying strong and maintaining LBM is your priority i'd be more inclined to do 50, 100, 150, 200m sprint intervals and even upto 400m. Find a park, or running track with a good surface, don't sprint on the road or a concrete path, and make sure you've got decent shoes and warm up full before breaking out into a full stride. If you at a school that has a good track and field coach, doing the sprinters plyometrics drills with the team will help with your rowing speed and power as well. However i would stay away from the longer slower distances. <br /><br /><br /><br />GW

Forgot to add from the previous post, make sure that your caloric intake is enough to cover the extra work.<br /><br />GW

Personally, I think the fear that you are going to loose all your muscles from running is a bit overblown. People think that if they run for 30 minutes, they're going to look like a Kenyan marathoner. <br /><br />One of the best ways to ensure that your muscles do not go into a catabolic state is to get proper nutrition especially getting enough protein. A post workout shake is very important and can be very beneficial in preventing muscle loss. Make sure it has protein and some high glycemic carbohydrates like maltodextrin or dextrose.<br /><br />Here's an article about nutrition for athletes (specifically rowers):<br /><br /><a href='http://www.thecoxguide.com/personal/dinknutri.html' target='_blank'>http://www.thecoxguide.com/personal/dinknutri.html</a>

<!--QuoteBegin-gw1+Feb 9 2005, 02:41 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(gw1 @ Feb 9 2005, 02:41 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->bsemaiktehr,<br /><br />At 6'3 / 187lbs and only 17 y.o, and you want to run a couple of sessions a week, while staying strong and maintaining LBM is your priority i'd be more inclined to do 50, 100, 150, 200m sprint intervals and even upto 400m. Find a park, or running track with a good surface, don't sprint on the road or a concrete path, and make sure you've got decent shoes and warm up full before breaking out into a full stride. If you at a school that has a good track and field coach, doing the sprinters plyometrics drills with the team will help with your rowing speed and power as well.  However i would stay away from the longer slower distances. <br /><br /><br /><br />GW <br /> </td></tr></table><br />I can not disagree more strongly with what is suggested! If bsemaiktehr was training for the mile run, that type of workout might make sense, once a week, after having build a good endurance foundation. Even for a long distance runner (with a lot of mileage in the bank) several sessions of sprints per week, as suggested, is the perfect recipe for injury. <br />Clearly, what bsemaiktehr is lacking is endurance (after all, he is only 17!) as shown by the discrepancy between his 500m in 1:29.7, and his 5000m in 18:50. In my opinion, his 5000m should be just under 17:00 if he had good endurance.<br />The best way to build that endurance (and it takes years) is to row long pieces at 60% to 80% of HRR. One could also bike, run, swim, cross-country sky, etc., at those intensities, but it will not be as productive for rowing purposes.

The thread started by saying he "really want" to run. So what are you going to say, no! <br />Generally anyone that wants to do a certain type of training is relatively proficient at it, and derives some sort of enjoyment to go along with the benefit.<br />He is looking for supplementary training not specific or primary modalities. This type of training often changes as an athlete evolves. His primary base training should be rowing, where he can also work on his technique. A couple of properly executed sprint/plyo sessions a week will do nothing but make him a stronger competitor. Believe me they were the sessions for 15 years i dreaded the most (also the reason i do no running now ) and never incured an injury from them.<br /><br />Remember as Yoda says, no shouting, disagreement is healthly, but yelling is not!<br /><br />GW

<!--QuoteBegin-gw1+Feb 9 2005, 05:06 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(gw1 @ Feb 9 2005, 05:06 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The thread started by saying he "really want" to run. So what are you going to say, no! <br /> </td></tr></table><br />If one reads the whole sentence, the thread started with "I really want to start going for runs in the mornings to improve my cardio."; to that I maintain that the best way to improve his cardio is to do long distance row at 60% to 80% of HRR. Short of that, any aerobic activities that maintains his HR at that level for a sufficiently long period of time (> 1hr) could do. IMHO sprint runs and plyo do not fit the bill.<br /><!--QuoteBegin-gw1+Feb 9 2005, 05:06 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(gw1 @ Feb 9 2005, 05:06 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Remember as Yoda says, no shouting, disagreement is healthy, but yelling is not!<br /> </td></tr></table><br />I agree with you on this one!

If one reads the whole sentence, the thread started with "I really want to start going for runs in the mornings to improve my cardio."; to that I maintain that the best way to improve his cardio is to do long distance row at 60% to 80% of HRR. Short of that, any aerobic activities that maintains his HR at that level for a sufficiently long period of time (> 1hr) could do.

<br /><br />We both agree on this, my modality choice was offered only as a supplement due to his inclination towards running. <br /><br /><br />

IMHO sprint runs and plyo do not fit the bill.

<br /><br />Maybe not the best, but Sprint intervals and plyo's are aerobic, i remember my our recovery pieces our HR would only come down to the mid 140's then off we'd go again. HR shooting back upto the 180's, you try this for 45 mins. We even had this long slight incline sand dune we'd have to sprint up, we were doing these from bsemaiktehr's age till my late 20's. My C2 2500M time trail at that time was 7:30.6. <br />I think my true motive on this is that I don't see any reason why today's youth shouldn't suffer as well!!!!! <br /><br />GW<br /><br />

y'all take this stuff way too seriously... <br /><br />

<!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->y'all take this stuff way too seriously...  </td></tr></table><br /><br />We are having a civil discussion on our philosophical differences in training, the only problem with doing it over a message board is that you don't know if you're the only one drinking!!!!!!!! <br /><br />GW<br />

<!--QuoteBegin-gw1+Feb 9 2005, 06:36 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(gw1 @ Feb 9 2005, 06:36 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->... Sprint intervals and plyo's are aerobic, i remember my our recovery pieces our HR would only come down to the mid 140's then off we'd go again. HR shooting back upto the 180's, you try this for 45 mins.<br /> </td></tr></table><br />Sprint intervals are largely anaerobic (90% to 100% of Max HR) and account for a small percentage of the training volume of an endurance athlete. When training is periodized, that percentage will vary from one macrocycle to the next. It is usually not done early in the training season. The reason they are not done more often is that they are very hard, and that to be effective, one should be well rested before and one needs to recover after. Therefore, if performed too often, they will affect the training volume and consequently will impact on endurance. It is important to note that someone with a good endurance will be able to train harder in those workouts because of he/she would recover faster.<br /><br /><!--QuoteBegin-gw1+Feb 9 2005, 06:36 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(gw1 @ Feb 9 2005, 06:36 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I think my true motive on this is that I don't see any reason why today's youth shouldn't suffer as well!!!!!   <br /> </td></tr></table><br />Training at an aerobic level intensity several hours every day for several years in order build a good endurance foundation requires a lot of dedication; it is suffering, but of a different kind; more "Zen-Samurai" like!

Gentlemen, Gentlemen,<br /><br />Please take it easy on each other. I beleive if you re-read our young friends post he is saying he would like to increase his aerobic conditioning AND increase his body weight as well. He's asking you old farts for some suggestions. All you guys are talking about is running. How about some other suggestions? You know what I mean. How can he increase the muscle mass and still gain aerobically? I don't believe that pylo training is the answer to his question. But that's me. Maybe a combination of heavy resistance training once a week in a circuit style along with some slow heavy pulls on the ERG. Not sure at this end. He's only 17 and has a lot of growing left to do. Now is a good time to really lay the foundation for later years of strong rowing.<br /><br />Remember, it's a conversation, NO YELLING!!!!!!<br /><br />Ya Ha<br />Yoda

... Sprint intervals and plyo's are aerobic, i remember my our recovery pieces our HR would only come down to the mid 140's then off we'd go again. HR shooting back upto the 180's, you try this for 45 mins.<br /><br /><br />Sprint intervals are largely anaerobic (90% to 100% of Max HR) and account for a small percentage of the training volume of an endurance athlete. When training is periodized, that percentage will vary from one macrocycle to the next. It is usually not done early in the training season. The reason they are not done more often is that they are very hard, and that to be effective, one should be well rested before and one needs to recover after. Therefore, if performed too often, they will affect the training volume and consequently will impact on endurance. It is important to note that someone with a good endurance will be able to train harder in those workouts because of he/she would recover faster.

<br /><br />I don't disagree with any of your logic and ultimately i think we'd both like to see his base CV done in the modality of his sport. With supplementation of a different source, thats where we differ in methodologies.<br /><br /><br /><br />

Training at an aerobic level intensity several hours every day for several years in order build a good endurance foundation requires a lot of dedication; it is suffering, but of a different kind; more "Zen-Samurai" like!

<br /><br />Having run a marathon at 220lbs, done a triathlon and paddled as a member of a relay team in a 24hr marathon, i fully understand this sentiment. <br />I do believe that bsemaiktehr's times can be improved across the board by a mixture of modalities, including supplementary resistance training, plyomentrics, swimming, cycling etc done as you said in a periodized format around his racing schedule.<br /><br />Now i'm going to lift some weights and get used to my new slides that just arrived!!<br /><br />Over and out.<br /><br />GW <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />