First Impressions On The Slides

[[old] John Rupp]

This is why the slides are more like rowing in a boat than the erg is, and the RowPerfect is even closer to rowing in a boat, than the slides.

[[old] PaulS]

<!--QuoteBegin-FrancoisA+Jan 13 2006, 01:33 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(FrancoisA @ Jan 13 2006, 01:33 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-PaulS+Jan 13 2006, 08:35 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Jan 13 2006, 08:35 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->No, because a bit more than 2 years ago, a pair of very hard Erg Time Trials (500m and 2500M)  lead to a lot of time away from being able to get on the water and I don't want to cause that again. If I knew at what threshold the problem was caused it would be a different matter, but it was more of a surprise in the days following, so it's mostly a risk management strategy at this point.  Plus, my Erging performance is incidental, it's the assistance I can provide to others to improve their performance that is far more rewarding. <br /> </td></tr></table><br />Paul, in one of your post, if I remember right, you mentioned that one is far more likely to hurt oneself on an erg than rowing on water. Why is it the case?<br /><br />Thanks <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />There are a couple reasons for this and it would vary by the motivation and ability of the Athlete, so I'll just address it for the highly motivated and technically proficient athlete.<br /><br />On the Erg it is possible to produce far higher peak forces than in a boat, and since there is not an oar shaft to reduce excessive shock these forces can have catastrophic effects on the body. When fatigue begins to set in, there will be some self limiting things that happen in a boat (good timing suffers and that will limit the peak force production), that don't happen on the Erg (poor timing may result in more flywheel slowing and an increase in shock load). <br /><br />Basically, if our muscles are strong enough our body will likely break before the chain would, but an oar shaft will break before our body will.<br /><br />The Erg is really a source of strength training for on water rowing, a high peak force on an oar handle would be 940N, and an Average handle force of 0.62 of peak is considered well above average. As you can see from the earlier graphs, this much force is about middle of the road on the Erg, with the highest peaks well in excess of 1200N. Oars can support such forces, but at a much lower rate than the chain and flywheel.<br />

[[old] PaulS]

<!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Jan 13 2006, 01:57 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Jan 13 2006, 01:57 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-PaulS+Jan 13 2006, 12:18 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Jan 13 2006, 12:18 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->my  simple example, which did not have good controls showed that the peak force at teh handle was higher when on the Grounded Erg </td></tr></table><br /><br />So it took more handle force on the erg, to go the same speed as on the slides.<br /><br />It is nice to see your experiment has proved the same thing that I've already posted. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />No. Apparently you are not comprehending again. More handle force produced a faster pace at a lower rate. This would happen on or off slides.<br /><br />That more force (ground) was percieved as nearly equal to that on slides is exactly opposite of what your earlier posting would suggest, but you've reversed yourself a number of times on this, which direction are you choosing now?<br /><br />As pointed out, you have no facts to back your argument up, and it has been shown to be logically flawed many times as you create your own conundrums.

[[old] John Rupp]

<!--QuoteBegin-PaulS+Jan 13 2006, 02:19 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Jan 13 2006, 02:19 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->That more force (ground) was percieved as nearly equal to that on slides is exactly opposite of what your earlier posting would suggest </td></tr></table><br /><br />Perhaps.<br /><br />However, perception is not a good basis for experiment.<br /><br />It is far better, I think, to set up an actually extensnive physical test, as I have done.<br /><br />Then you will be more likely to get valid results

[[old] PaulS]

<!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Jan 13 2006, 02:40 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Jan 13 2006, 02:40 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-PaulS+Jan 13 2006, 02:19 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Jan 13 2006, 02:19 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->More handle force produced a faster pace at a lower rate.  This would happen on or off slides. </td></tr></table><br /><br />So your experiment didn't mean anything.<br /><br />"The exact opposite of what your earlier posting would suggest, but you've reversed yourself a number of times on this, which direction are you choosing now? As pointed out, you have no facts to back your argument up, and it has been shown to be logically flawed many times as you create your own conundrums."<br /><br />That pretty much sums it up. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />My experiment showed that being on Slides or the Ground has essentially identical output requirements for a given pace on the Erg. This has been explained a number of times.<br /><br />Thank you, I thought it was a good analysis of your ridiculous arguments also.<br /><br />Glad to see that you finally have realized your position is unsupported. Though it's rare to see you finally get things right, so I suppose you were intending some other meaning, possibly a personal jab of some sort. But that's just a guess.

[[old] John Rupp]

<!--QuoteBegin-PaulS+Jan 13 2006, 03:01 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Jan 13 2006, 03:01 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->My experiment showed that being on Slides or the Ground has essentially identical output requirements for a given pace on the Erg.  This has been explained a number of times. </td></tr></table><br /><br />Okay but as you stated, you didn't have valid controls.<br /><br />Don't you think you should have valid controls before conducting an experiment.

[[old] NavigationHazard]

<!--QuoteBegin-PaulS+Jan 13 2006, 05:06 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Jan 13 2006, 05:06 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><br />Basically, if our muscles are strong enough our body will likely break before the chain would, but an oar shaft will break before our body will.<br /><br />...<br /><br />Oars can support such forces, but at a much lower rate than the chain and flywheel. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />I've never broken an oar shaft, but I have bent my oarlock pins while digging my oars and hauling too lustily on the handles. I've also broken the struts on riggers doing the same thing. I agree with Paul -- funky technique OTW either will break the equipment before it breaks you, or land you in the river, or both. <br />

[[old] PaulS]

<!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Jan 13 2006, 03:05 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Jan 13 2006, 03:05 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Jan 13 2006, 02:40 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Jan 13 2006, 02:40 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So your experiment didn't mean anything. </td></tr></table><br /><!--QuoteBegin-PaulS+Jan 13 2006, 03:01 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Jan 13 2006, 03:01 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->My experiment showed ... a good analysis of ... ridiculous arguments ... unsupported.  Though it's rare to see ... so I suppose ... some other meaning, possibly ... just a guess. </td></tr></table><br /><br />Thanks for clarifying. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Wow John, I just don't know what to say. Can't you come up with something more original than misquoting me?<br /><br />You have further destroyed your own credibility, and here I was thinking there was absolutely none left to destroy.<br /><br />You're really making this too easy, just another yappie yorkie that deserves a virtual newspaper across the nose.<br /><br />"Swat!" Now shut up and stop wetting yourself.

[[old] John Rupp]

You can only have valid results, when you have property set up your experiment.

[[old] John Rupp]

I'd be interested to see, if you can duplicate my experiment, and what kind of results you'd get then.

[[old] PaulS]

<!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Jan 13 2006, 05:20 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Jan 13 2006, 05:20 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->How did I misquote you?<br />I am happy with my credibility.<br />That it doesn't stand well with you serves to reaffirm that what I am doing is correct.<br />My slide experiments remain unrefutable, as I have actually done them and they stand on their merits. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />The misquote is too obvious to bother responding to.<br /><br />I'm glad you are happy with your credibility, do you adjust for that also?<br /><br />Being a contrarian is fine, but it rarely right if you find yourself on the opposite side of me, which you endlessly attempt to justify through tiresome drivel.<br /><br />Your agenda driven slide experiments are pure gibberish without foundation or any objective controls, in fact they are refuted quite well by genuine controlled studies.<br /><br />That said, we see a lot of agenda driven "research" in the real world that is equally rubbish, so carry on as you like.<br /><br />I'll give you a hint, though I doubt you will listen: If you continue to play with the tigers tail, you better be prepared for his teeth.

[[old] Kappy]

Paul <br /><br />I have a theory about why you might get more stress/distress injuries on an erg than in a boat. Its not that rowing equipment will break before a rower does. It is because when you pull harder on the erg - the readout tells you that you are going faster and you finish sooner - but the resistance and actual speed does not change.<br /><br />When you pull harder on the water - the boat speeds up. You have to keep pulling even harder AND quicker to make sure you are still moving the boat and not just hanging on. Also - since you must be pulling correctly to actually meet the type of resistance we train for - mis-steps on the water result in the oar slicing away or the handle whipping by your face - ie a catastrophic LACK of resistance.<br /><br />So the result of an incorrect stroke on the erg - is that you pull against just as much resistance in a 'weak' posistion. You can keep going and grind yourself into oblivion. The result in a boat is usually that you meet a frightening lack of resistance in your 'weak' position. You get your act together or take up swimming.<br /><br />If you WANTED to injure yourself on the water, all you have to do is artifically slow down your boat (a bungie on the bottom, drag a can) and then grind away. There are a lot of rowers out there with rib fractures who'se oars and riggers held up just fine.<br /><br />Another theory is that erging does not actually produce the injury. The sound of it merely summons the demons that produce the injury.

[[old] PaulS]

Good points Kappy. The flywheel does end up at a higher RPM though (like a boat moving faster), so I'd have to go for a combination of your technical points that making an error in a boat likely results in having less resistance to work with, due to poor bladework. However even if you do connect up well, at least the shaft absorbs some of the initial shock, as well as returns that energy at the finish.<br /><br />Come to think of it, there were some very strange sounds coming from the Erg a Couple years back. A high pitched whine that would be characteristic of demons. Perhaps we should refer to "exorcising on the Erg" from now on, or maybe "Ergxorcising".<br /><br />Reminds me of the saying, "Pain is what you feel as weakness leaves your body."

[[old] John Rupp]

<!--QuoteBegin-Kappy+Jan 14 2006, 07:43 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Kappy @ Jan 14 2006, 07:43 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->the result of an incorrect stroke on the erg - is that you pull against just as much resistance in a 'weak' posistion.  You can keep going and grind yourself into oblivion. The result in a boat is usually that you meet a frightening lack of resistance in your 'weak' position. You get your act together or take up swimming.<br /><br />If you WANTED to injure yourself on the water, all you have to do is artifically slow down your boat (a bungie on the bottom, drag a can) and then grind away.  There are a lot of rowers out there with rib fractures who'se oars and riggers held up just fine. </td></tr></table><br /><br />Great points, Kappy. <br />

[[old] Porkchop]

For what it is worth, I really regret my contribution to the fund that facilitated this "debate."<br /><br />(And, no, I don't think this comment violates my New Year's resolution.)