Is Height A Factor ?

[[old] PaulH]

<!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Jan 25 2005, 03:50 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Jan 25 2005, 03:50 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So all the less tall rowers you know go at 38-40 + spm for a 2k?<br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />You've confused me once again John - where did I say that? The 'less tall' rowers I know are all advised to row at a pace they can control, and to work on increasing that number. For most of them that upper limit is anywhere from 26-32, depending on distance covered, though some can get higher.<br /><br />I had taken C2's listing of Mr Luini's height, which on further investigation isn't accurate. So being as accurate as we can, he appears to be 183cm, possibly as much as 184cm. Any of these values is significantly taller than the average for males, let alone males of his weight class.<br /><br />So, have you come up with a competition anywhere in the world that decides the winner using W/kg? Perhaps some Andean Llama racing event, or Bolivian pole jumping gathering?<br /><br />Cheers, Paul

[[old] John Rupp]

<!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Jan 25 2005, 12:50 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Jan 25 2005, 12:50 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Of course -- because most less tall rowers take the "advice" of the taller ones to restrict the rating. </td></tr></table><br /><!--QuoteBegin-PaulH+Jan 25 2005, 06:28 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulH @ Jan 25 2005, 06:28 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->1. Most less tall rowers take this advice?  I know perhaps 50-60 'less tall' rowers directly, and none of them takes this advice.<br /> </td></tr></table><br />So all the less tall rowers you know go at 38-40 + spm for a 2k? </td></tr></table><br />Paul,<br /><br />So you are saying all the rowers you know DO take the advice to restrict their rating.<br /><br />Fine, that is affirmation for my previous statement and, as I said, an absolutely fantastic competitive tactic for tall/er rowers.<br /><br />However, note the lightweight record is held by Elia Luini, who is only 6' tall.<br /><br />There are plenty of athletes who are taller than him, who are 165 pounds or less, but NONE of them come close to his record.<br /><br />This points out, again, that there is an OPTIMUM weight for one's height, and that watts per kilogram are the best measure of performance.<br />

[[old] John Rupp]

Going by watts/kilogram, the fastest two rowers in the world are Elia Luini and Eskild Ebbesbon.<br /><br />Elia Luini does NOT restrict his stroke rate.<br /><br />Neither does Eskild Ebbesen.

[[old] Mark Keating]

<!--QuoteBegin-Canoeist+Jan 25 2005, 05:43 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Canoeist @ Jan 25 2005, 05:43 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->[right] <br /><br />Have you ever been to a pub where there is a dwarf tossing contest and the winner had thrown a sumo wrestler by mistake instead of a dwarf?<br /><br />Cheers,<br /><br />Paul Flack <br /> </td></tr></table><br />No, I haven't. But I bet I know someone who has observed this phenomenon. I wouldn't want to mention Mr. Rupp's name in public though ... oops, there I go again!

[[old] Mark Keating]

<!--QuoteBegin-PaulH+Jan 25 2005, 09:08 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulH @ Jan 25 2005, 09:08 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So, have you come up with a competition anywhere in the world that decides the winner using W/kg?  Perhaps some Andean Llama racing event, or Bolivian pole jumping gathering?<br /><br />Cheers, Paul <br /> </td></tr></table><br />Don't worry Paul, I figured it out.<br /><br />It's the world midget toss championships. You may think I am joking, but I heard that the winner of this prestigious event is decided by how many midgets, with first name being "Watt" of course, a person can throw against a velcro wall, and make them stick. <br /><br />In this event, clearly, those athletes with the highest TPM (Tosses Per Minute) will reign supreme. However, since there are a finite number of midgets named Watt on this fine planet, one must also balance the number of Watt-tosses per minute with the total Watt-kilograms tossed. Otherwise the parcipant risks the much feared "fly and die" scenario where regardless of the effort exerted, perfectly good Watts fall short considerably short of the target only to wake up dead several hours, or even days, later. <br /><br />The most successful strategy in this highly skilled event is to toss Welsh midgets named Watt. Here, the athlete's odds of success are enhanced enormously since they are, in effect, tossing (W*W) or Watts squared. And since the denominator in the equation Watts/kg is consistently constant practically most of the time, this is the best strategy.<br />The number of athletes capable of such a toss are rare, however, since one must possess the endurance of a long-distance runner (have you ever tried running to Wales, chasing down down a midget named Watt, running all the way back across the ocean, then finally heaving him against a Velcro wall?) as well as a particularly long inseam for some unknown reason.<br /><br />As you can clearly see, neither the height of the athlete nor the height of the midget is a factor here. The only real measure of performance in this competition is Watts/kg. <br /><br />And surely you now understand why height is a factor in neither erging nor rowing, but Watts/kg is.

[[old] John Rupp]

Mark,<br /><br />I didn't realize you were a sumo wrestler, it must have been someone else who tossed you out of the ring though as I don't frequent such places.

[[old] whp4]

<!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Jan 25 2005, 09:37 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Jan 25 2005, 09:37 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Going by watts/kilogram, the fastest two rowers in the world are Elia Luini and Eskild Ebbesbon.<br /><br />Elia Luini does NOT restrict his stroke rate.<br /><br />Neither does Eskild Ebbesen. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Ah, so we are to believe that neither of these world-class athletes is capable of rating any faster than they do? Interesting. <br /><br />Also interesting that you apparently know the watt/kg ratio of everyone who has ever rowed over any distance, when we know that not all rows are recorded in the C2 database.<br />

[[old] John Rupp]

Whp#4,<br /><br />You misread my message.<br /><br />Read it again.<br /><br />Nothing was said about them rating as fast as they could, but rather that <b>they did not RESTRICT their rating</b>.<br /><br />Elia Luini is the current WORLD RECORD holder for lightweights.<br /><br />Eskild Ebbesen held the previous record, and is the current WORLD RECORD holder for lightweights age 30 and up.

[[old] whp4]

<!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Jan 26 2005, 01:03 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Jan 26 2005, 01:03 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Nothing was said about them rating as fast as they could, but rather that <b>they did not RESTRICT their rating</b>.<br /><br />Elia Luini is the current WORLD RECORD holder for lightweights.<br /><br />Eskild Ebbesen held the previous record, and is the current WORLD RECORD holder for lightweights age 30 and up. <br /> </td></tr></table><br />Thanks for the update on EL and EE - I'd forgotten they are the WORLD RECORD holders! Good to know. Perhaps PaulH could put up a "pinned" post to remind us all of that whenever we visit the forum. Paul, what do you think?<br /><br />If you aren't rating as high as you can, obviously you must be restricting your stroke rate. It's just a matter of degree, whether you are restricting it to an average of 41.3, 36, or any other number less than your max achievable stroke rate. By the way, it doesn't make much sense to speak of a single average stroke rate for a piece if most of the piece is done at varying stroke rates substantially different than the overall average, as seems to be EE's style.<br /><br />There is no evidence whatsoever that EE and EL understand erging better than their opposite numbers on the heavyweight side - don't bother trotting out your watts/kg ratio to "prove" otherwise. But it is true, they have rowed faster C2-accepted 2k results than anyone else, if we ignore all the people who were faster (quite a few of them, judging from the rankings, too bad they had the misfortune to grow up to be so big and strong they had to be heavyweights instead of lightweights). Maybe if you ask nicely, Bill Patton will put in a sort by watts/kg feature in the rankings

[[old] John Rupp]

Yeah why don't you ask PaulH, while you're looking at his reflection in your mirror.<br /><br /> <br /><br />I run at 180 strides per minute, every morning, and am certainly not restricting my rate.<br /><br />I -- could -- run at 150 strides per minute, or I -- could -- run at probably 200 strides per minute.<br /><br />The first would be restricting my rate, the second would be EXCEEDING my rate, i.e. pushing it faster than what I feel is my optimum.<br /><br />Your assumption that not restricting your rate, is going FASTER then your rate is blatantly false and simply shows that you have not put any thought into the issue.<br /><br />The performance monitor converts power via watts to pace. You can't get away from this because it's quite simply how the monitor and the C2 erg works.<br /><br />Thus the fastest rowers are those who can output the greatest watts for their weight.<br /><br />Period.<br /><br />Like it or leave it but that's how it is.

[[old] kimchitom]

Don't mean to depress any height concened young people out there. But consider atrophy as one ages. I enlisted in the U.S.Marines as an 18 year old in 1950. Height measurement was 5'10.5". Just measured, prompted by this article, and am now 5'7". The good news is that the most important appendage is not affected. In fact, that's where some of the height may have gone. <br />Kimchitom 72/Lwt. 9:16.0.2K. (1st.yr.erger) Goal to break 9:00.this yr.

[[old] Bill]

[quote=PaulH,Jan 23 2005, 10:00 AM]<br />...............then clearly the only way you can be right is if the medical community has invented a constellation of new illnesses compared to what people suffered 500 years ago, while at the same time people spontaneously lived longer. Certainly we know about more - one example is Alzheimer's, which is a much bigger problem that it was 500 years ago because people now live long enough to die from it. But I struggle to blame the medical community for that, or to say that they 'invented' them.<br /><br />Paul,<br /><br />I dont know why but your post reminded me of this interesting idea that I once came across...<br /><br />- you pay the doctor $1 per day when you are healthy and nothing at all when you are sick.<br /><br />This gives the medical profession an incentive to keep you healthy - preventative maintenance - rather than to study and describe new ways of being sick.<br /><br />I believe this sytem was once practiced in parts of china some hundreds of years ago.<br /><br />Am not trying to start an argument - merely thought it was an interesting way of managing public health and something in your post reminded me of it.<br /><br />Bill

[[old] Lippy]

The frustration is knotting this short chap's stomache

[[old] PaulH]

<!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Jan 25 2005, 04:33 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Jan 25 2005, 04:33 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So you are saying all the rowers you know DO take the advice to restrict their rating.<br /><br />Fine, that is affirmation for my previous statement and, as I said, an absolutely fantastic competitive tactic for tall/er rowers.<br /><br />However, note the lightweight record is held by Elia Luini, who is only 6' tall.<br /><br />There are plenty of athletes who are taller than him, who are 165 pounds or less, but NONE of them come close to his record.<br /><br />This points out, again, that there is an OPTIMUM weight for one's height, and that watts per kilogram are the best measure of performance.<br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Again, John, where did I say that? If you have to keep making up things that I said it portrays you as dishonest, and your arguments as weak.<br /><br />I said that the 'less tall' rowers I know are *advised* to row at a rate they can control. Now not all of them follow that advice (therefore your statement is factually wrong), and the alternative would be to row at a pace they can't control (which makes your statement ludicrous.).<br /><br />So what do you suggest John, that people row at a pace they *can't* control? I believe the technical term for that is "flailing." Is that what you think good technique is, flailing?<br /><br />Let's look at what else you say:<br /><br />Elia Luini is 'only' 6' tall. Well, he would be in the top 17% of US males (who are a taller group than all but a handful of nations). So your definition of tall is bogus.<br /><br />Yes, there are people who are taller or shorter than him, and weigh the same, or more, or less. None of that means that you have to be just like him to be the fastest in the world, any more than it means your first name has to start with E. But insofar as it tells us anything, it says that you need to be pretty tall for your weight, and perhaps you don't need to be right at 164.9lbs.<br /><br />Finally, this optimum weight per height idea. Not only do the things that you said *not* point that out, you haven't provided any actual evidence that does support it, and it's an idea that is on its face preposterous - if I were 6'1" and a little heavier than Mr Luini then I could go just as fast as him, as could the person who was 5'0" and considerably lighter. One of those is plausible, the other not. And hence your conclusion that performance should be measured as W/kg is without foundation.<br /><br />Now if you could name one recognized competition, anywhere in the world, in any human activity, that measures performance in W/kg, we *might* need to reevaluate that. But so far I'm waiting, and waiting, and waiting...

[[old] PaulS]

<!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Jan 25 2005, 10:13 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Jan 25 2005, 10:13 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><br />The performance monitor converts power via watts to pace.  You can't get away from this because it's quite simply how the monitor and the C2 erg works.<br /><br />Thus the fastest rowers are those who can output the greatest watts for their weight.<br /><br />Period.<br /><br />Like it or leave it but that's how it is.  <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Where is the feature of the PM that allows for Weight entry?<br /><br />Near as I can tell, the "Fastest Times" are produced by the highest Average Watts produced, period.