Discussion On Adjustments ...

[[old] PaulS]

<!--QuoteBegin-NavigationHazard+Dec 28 2005, 10:14 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(NavigationHazard @ Dec 28 2005, 10:14 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I didn't introduce anything, I just plugged the times into JR's PATT formula per the tables in his signature.<br /><br />Of course no one has done a recognized sub-15 minute 5k, not even Cracknall or Pinsent.  For some reason JR figures his PATT percentages for everything less than 30' against the standing 2k world record for the gender/weight class.  This is then obscured by conversion factors that appear to me to have been derived from random dice throws, or possibly supplied by some dark angel.<br /><br />As far as I know, the standing 40s HW record for 5k in 2003 was the great Tore Foss' 16:10.9 (done at age 48!).  That's 1:37 pace.  The 1:46.5 pace of your best reported time that year is 91.1% as fast.<br /><br />As far as I know, the standing 50s LW record for 5k in 2003 was Rod Freed's 16:47.0.  That's 1:40.7 pace.  The 1:53.7 pace of JR's 18:57.4 is 88.6% as fast.<br /><br />By that standard, you win.  True, the likely retort is that Freed's time is suspect..... <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Sorry to imply that you were the source of the figure introduced, that was not intended. And of course, having you explain where it did come from takes me out of the loop on sourcing it. <br /><br />Thanks for providing more facts. We can now stand back and watch John go through torturous machinations in an attempt to come to grips with reality.<br /><br />John, would never question any of Freed's times. That would cause his Universe to collapse and crush all within it.

[[old] mpukita]

Maybe you could try a series of races ... 500M through HM ... during the year ... and use:<br /><br /><a href='http://www.concept2.com/05/training/com ... ht_adj.asp' target='_blank'>http://www.concept2.com/05/training/com ... asp</a><br /><br />???

[[old] John Rupp]

<!--QuoteBegin-NavigationHazard+Dec 28 2005, 08:55 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(NavigationHazard @ Dec 28 2005, 08:55 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->How do you figure 81.5%?<br /><br />According to your formula, isn't it PATT = ((86.8/106.5)/.970)?  I make that 84.0....  [right] </td></tr></table><br />Thanks for pointing out the miscalculation.<br /><br />You are correct. Paul's PATT score for the 5k was <b>84.0</b>.<br /><br /><br />

[[old] John Rupp]

<!--QuoteBegin-PaulS+Dec 28 2005, 09:20 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Dec 28 2005, 09:20 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Really?  So you are saying that the time you listed in the C2 Rankings is wrong?<br />"24  John Rupp 56 Santa Maria  California  USA  5000 19:08.4 " - 2003 Rankings </td></tr></table><br />A simple look at the profile dates would have shown the following:<br /><br />5k: 19:08.4 - October 27, 2002<br /><br /><b>5k: 18:57.4 - May 03, 2003</b>

[[old] John Rupp]

<!--QuoteBegin-PaulS+Dec 28 2005, 09:20 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Dec 28 2005, 09:20 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm fine with the fact that PB's may not be listed in the rankings personally, but you imply that any time in the rankings is reflective of a "best effort", so it would follow that is how you treat them.  </td></tr></table><br />It is strange you feel that way, since I have posted on this and the old forum numerous times encouraging people to put the very first time they row for any distance in the rankings each year.<br /><br />To back that up I have done the same, for example entering a time of 2:24.0 for the 500 meters at the beginning of each ranking year. Also, <b>I have ranking times entered for all 10 ranking events!</b><br /><br />Where are your times for the ranking events?<br /><br />Even though I have entered my first times for each distance each ranking year, and though they were not necessarily the best times I could do, they are still all faster than your times, most all of which are non existant. You had to go back 3 years to find one. I can understand this though as you have expressed a number of times and again on this thread of being "afraid" to do time trials or races.<br /><br /><!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I get no satisfaction from Erg Time comparisons (No matter how fast I've gone </td></tr></table><br />I can imagine it wouldn't be very satisfying, since you don't have any times listed there for this year.

[[old] PaulS]

<!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Dec 28 2005, 01:07 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Dec 28 2005, 01:07 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-PaulS+Dec 28 2005, 09:20 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Dec 28 2005, 09:20 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Really?  So you are saying that the time you listed in the C2 Rankings is wrong?<br />"24  John Rupp 56 Santa Maria  California  USA  5000 19:08.4 " - 2003 Rankings </td></tr></table><br />A simple look at the profile dates would have shown the following:<br /><br />5k: 19:08.4 - October 27, 2002<br /><br /><b>5k: 18:57.4 - May 03, 2003</b> <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />I was looking at the 2003 ranking year, and only one time can be ranked each year, your May 3, 2003 time is in the 2004 ranking year, but we went ahead and gave you credit for the 18:57.4 anyway, and you still lost.<br /><br />I'm sorry that this did not work out for you with performances that actually exist, as illustrated by you to making up fictional performances that are faster than reality for my category and slower than reality in your category.<br /><br />Whatever makes you feel the best about yourself is what you should do, but now you should realize that making challenges is probably not going to help you very much in that area.<br /><br />Just a bit of friendly advice. Bow out of this thread before embarassing yourself any further.<br /><br />Good luck in your training.

[[old] John Rupp]

PaulS,<br /><br />My time in 2003 was 18:57.4, a <b>90.1 percent PATT score</b>.<br /><br />Your time of 17:45 at age 40 was an <b>84.0 percent</b> PATT score.<br /><br />I didn't say anything about wins and losses but, if you want to keep score, my PATT score is much better than yours. <br />

[[old] PaulS]

<!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Dec 28 2005, 01:47 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Dec 28 2005, 01:47 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->PaulS,<br /><br />My time in 2003 was 18:57.4, a <b>90.1 percent PATT score</b>.<br /><br />Your time of 17:45 at age 40 was an <b>84.0 percent</b> PATT score.<br /><br />I didn't say anything about wins and losses but, if you want to keep score, my PATT score is much better than yours.  <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />You still are failing to point out the person who accomplished the 5k at an Avg pace of 1:28.8 that would result in a PATT score of 84.0 for me.<br />As well as the WR 5k that was apparently slower than Rod Freeds performance in your category at Avg Pace = 1:42.4 that gives you your 90.1 PATT. Mr. Freeds 5k was a 1:40.7 Avg pace.<br /><br />NavHaz appears to have done the real world comparison of achieved times.<br /><br />Perhaps the term "loss" was not what you had in mind when you made the challenge, and certainly I did not want you to lose anything, but it was your challenge, so now you have to live with the result.<br /><br />Chin up and press on, continued improvement is out there for the taking.

[[old] John Rupp]

<!--QuoteBegin-PaulS+Dec 28 2005, 02:08 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Dec 28 2005, 02:08 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You still are failing to point out the person who accomplished the 5k at an Avg pace of 1:28.8 that would result in a PATT score of 84.0 for me. </td></tr></table><br />Gosh so many "conditions", Paul. <br /><br />The 97.0% increase from 2k to 5k is identical regardless of one's age, gender, or weight class. It is the same for you as it is for me. <br /><br /><!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Perhaps the term "loss" was not what you had in mind when you made the challenge, and certainly I did not want you to lose anything, but it was your challenge, so now you have to live with the result. </td></tr></table><br />It is fine with me that my PATT time was so much higher than yours. <br /><br />Hey Paul, all the best with your rowing eh.

[[old] PaulS]

<!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Dec 28 2005, 02:14 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Dec 28 2005, 02:14 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-PaulS+Dec 28 2005, 02:08 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Dec 28 2005, 02:08 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You still are failing to point out the person who accomplished the 5k at an Avg pace of 1:28.8 that would result in a PATT score of 84.0 for me. </td></tr></table><br />Gosh so many "conditions", Paul. <br /><br />The 97.0% increase from 2k to 5k is identical regardless of one's age, gender, or weight class. It is the same for you as it is for me. <br /> <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Not really so many, just "reality" verification.<br /><br />So now you are saying that the 2k WR in my category is 5:44.4, Avg Pace 1:26.1, which is what would be needed to get to the 1:28.8 Avg pace for the 5k.<br /><br />Perhaps you should check the record, as neither of these performaces seem to be published. Do you have a particular source of inside information? Please make it public.<br /><br />I'm pleased that you have been able to arrive at a PATT value that makes you feel good. I will say no more about it being a product of fantasy.<br /><br />Please take it easy on those of us that rely on real performance values to monitor our progress.

[[old] John Rupp]

The PATT percentages are based on 2k World Records.<br /><br />The increment increase in time of 97.0% from the 2k to the 5k is the same for everyone.<br /><br />

[[old] PaulS]

<!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Dec 28 2005, 03:12 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Dec 28 2005, 03:12 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The PATT percentages are based on 2k World Records.<br /><br />The increment increase in time of 97.0% from the 2k to the 5k is the same for everyone. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />You keep saying that, but without any sort of justification for it, it certainly doesn't follow anything that people who have been around Indoor Rowing and used it for testing purposes would accept as credible.<br /><br />But even we take your 97.0%, that still means there must be a WR 2k of 5:44.4 in my category to justify the subsequent 5k which you are using to calculate PATT. Surely you can come up with a name for this remarkable accomplishment, which exceeds the 5:52 of Pertii Karpinnen by quite a margin.

[[old] John Rupp]

<!--QuoteBegin-PaulS+Dec 28 2005, 03:26 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Dec 28 2005, 03:26 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->even we take your 97.0%, that still means there must be a WR 2k of 5:44.4 in my category to justify the subsequent 5k which you are using to calculate PATT. </td></tr></table><br /><br />No it doesn't.<br /><br />PATT is based on the 2k world records for each age, gender, and weight class.<br />

[[old] kjgress]

What happened to this original thread? Seems it got de-railed about 4 pages back.

[[old] PaulS]

<!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Dec 28 2005, 03:42 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Dec 28 2005, 03:42 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-PaulS+Dec 28 2005, 03:26 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Dec 28 2005, 03:26 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->even we take your 97.0%, that still means there must be a WR 2k of 5:44.4 in my category to justify the subsequent 5k which you are using to calculate PATT. </td></tr></table><br /><br />No it doesn't.<br /><br />PATT is based on the 2k world records for each age, gender, and weight class. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Sorry Karen, seems this needs dealing with, and this seems the place.<br /><br />Okay, let's make this really simple.<br /><br />What is the WR 2k for my category? <br />Who did it?<br /><br />What is the WR 2k for your category? <br />Who did it?